Natasha Tori Maru

@theleelajoker are you sure you just aren't feeling when someone wishes to attend another need, but agreeableness and conscientiousness is getting in the way? This is super common with women. 'I'm enjoying myself but I want to do x,y,z now, but I don't want to make this person feel rejected or pushed away. How can I express my needs without hurting them or offending?' There's the friction and hesitation you read in their expression and body language. Not sure, I could be wrong - you seem to be the type to intuite body language tone and expression in a razor sharp way. I do this too (I could be projecting!) and so when words don't match to body language I am suspicious. The error I make is when I attribute some duplicity going on when it is literally the person unsure how to candidly assert themselves for fear of offense. Women experience more anxiety typically than men, and high contentiousness will drive them to cut short an experience to avoid the anxiety of not doing something they are obliged to. Men as well, but women typically experience higher anxiety there

Identification with thoughts. Identification with the thought process produces assumptions that one is the thinker producing thought, and one watches these assumptions and thoughts so intently that it takes that to be the reality of who/what they are. But this is false. It is like the ocean mistaking itself as a wave. No-self isn't about the body being illusory. It's about who you (so to speak) think you 'are'. All the thinking of who you are generated in the social domain (as an example) is usually the biggest false self there is. No self is very grounded within experience, sensation, feeling. And this self is like a dirty pair of specticles obscuring your vision - obscuring true experience and being. Take the specticles off = true being, experience. Clarity. Take the specticles off = no self. The 'specticles' are what you think you are. Metaphorically speaking.

@czar24 How would you say your flirting skills are? Body presence? (Many gym guys are disconnected from their body due to trying to force it into a shape, which can remove grace and body language charisma) The 'play' mindset is key. Your self report was that you were quite serious - If you want to engage this play mindset... Well... Seriousness runs counter to that!

@Breakingthewall Sure I could be wrong. I have seen that documentary. My wider point is that you are the only one who doesn't like/agree with no-self/realisation. It's a core part of spirituality. You can find it here, in other practices. It is only you who does not agree. So I am more inclined to think you just haven't realised this yet

But you can fly. You can swim and never breathe the air, as a fish. You realise you are the birds and the fish. Your consciousness is everywhere. You are all. You share their experience. So you are flying as the birds. No seperation

You fundamentally and willfully misunderstand no self. No solid structure of self exists. This is the only part you are yet to realise. Really try to understand what no self is without judging it. Do you perceive some negativity, or is the resistance to it purely because you view it as impossible? I just don't understand how you view the self as a real permanent structure. I can't touch it. Where is it located? No smell. What does self sound like? You place an artificial limit on the human condition

@Mathdaddyg Haha! l I work down that way - if you ever happenchance to Monash Medical Centre, you will see the Tash no self clad in tradie flouros lol. No self in action in construction - hand out hard truth, deliver bad news - *I* (so to speak) don't care... no ego there to worry about how the news will be received

@Mathdaddyg You could say no-self is the realisation you (so to speak) are an illusion. You realise the self isn't a fixed, separate and enduring 'I'. Thoughts arise, sensations arise, but no one owns them. The realisation exposes the illusory nature of the mind's chokehold grip on reality. But you need an ego to survive. So you are free to imagine whatever illusory self is required to interact with reality to generate experience. Drop it as needed. Pick it back up. You wipe the slate clean to unburden yourself - from yourself.

Aren't you God though?

https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1mjc518/president_trump_says_he_cant_reveal_who_operated/ Wasn't he all gung-ho about revealing all this? Some big players have his dick in a vice now

@UnbornTao Yes, I danced around the issue with a lot of circular examples - which is often the case with phenomenology (I have trouble with this topic). Phenomenology feels like one of those little hand-held ball maze games on turbo drive. The ones where you tilt the thing... I'm constantly shifting the frame to get the ball to go in the middle but all it does it swing around in circles. Never quite getting there And then I end up dizzy myself! I like to think the constant chatter back and forth gets the question to spring to your mind - you often come out of no where in reaction to a discussion. Always good stuff

@Joshe This describes the mechanism behind it quite well. I view it as the addictive nature of feeling seen, known. It is very VERY powerful to others when you probe into them to find out more about them. Feeling understood. To be known is intimate - a form of love. People are starved of that, so when you pay attention and show interest in their inner worlds they are delighted and taken aback. To my experience anyway I just happen to enjoy finding out how others inner worlds operate. You explained well some of my conundrum! The other half is when someone is genuinely trying to extract how I do what I do. They probably don't ask the right questions, so I cannot give a clear answer. It doesn't help my inner world and workings really aren't clear to me. Nothing is concrete within my mind, I link things together in ways others don't expect - but I definitely verify things externally for truth. I digress..

The human, as you are, before society gets its claws into you - is perfect as is. Being. YOU (so to speak) aren't flawed. You are basically talking about no self with a lot of complicated overlays

@Breakingthewall 100% agree Is it any spirituality that you perceive as ignoring emotion as anti-human spirituality?

The goal of spirituality is truth. Everything else that occurs is a by-product: healing, comfort, belonging, hope, transcendence. 'Unlimited' 'open' - these may be synonyms for it - but lead to confusion. As is evidenced by this thread. It is an understanding you have come to, but seems to be a frame others stumble over. Curious @Breakingthewall - do you consider truth to be anti-human spirituality?

@Joshe They want to know how I am not judging experiences and forming negative feelings - I have tried to explain how this frees one up to be genuine, authentic and carefree. But it is not something I can put into words. Or, I am failing to do so. It is definitely 'how' I am doing what I am doing I cannot explain - because at the root of it, it's what I am NOT doing. Ergo the frustration I do take illness, injury and death seriously. It is the self generated suffering I do not have that words are not able to encapsulate. I feel myself as fluid and formless as an ego, and so I can change and imagine who I want to be. I think I lack a lot of attachment to qualities. Obviously there is some attachment - because I can be attached to this 'lack of attachment'! But I do not feel restricted. Acting and being from this space is like crack to people. There is a distinct feeling of them wanting to 'get' it - and their frustration is pushed onto me when I cannot explain. And to be clear - I know their frustration is their shit. I just dislike they have this experience

@Carl-Richard Weird - MIND IS SCANNING FOR PSYCHIC CONNECTIONS TO THIS MANIFESTATION

@Carl-Richard Could be unique to me but I was eating 3/4 eggs a day until 2 months ago I ended up with a very strange skin rash with cracking. I removed the egg yolks and just have one, the rest whites now. The rashes/dryness has since gone. It was localised to my achillies area Weird.

@ExploringReality Yes this always happens - same with the 'What is Experience' contemplation thread. It's easy for fall in the meta move of circular thinking

@theleelajoker A very sly way to put people on the spot and expose ego and insecurity! I enjoy talking and performing for audiences so it would be a fun experience for me... But I can already hear my sister talking about being embarrassed. Or how stupid it is when we have words etc I wish I could FORCE others to regress to child-like wonder - before society gets their claws into them with all these 'concepts' 'frames' 'ideas' 'language' Into the bin! I didn't even realise singing in music was actual words for a long time... embarrassingly long time! I thought it was just using the voice like an instrument to make sounds

@aurum Great share - thanks for the link. Agree with your take. @PenguinPablo I think there will always be some form of emotional entanglement going on (even if just slight, could be regard even) - how one deals with it is where their level of professionalism arises. Even if we aren't always aware of the emotions, they are generally there. Unless one is a sociopath. Just my thoughts !

The topic almost feels bigger than one session of thought can juice from it - so there will be more: The linguistic surroundings - words that come before and after: The bag is light - The light turned on Situation - so who where when and of course, 'what' is happening: A dinner by candlelight (light is ambience) - At the gym (light is the weight) The cultural framework, which would be, I suppose, shared assumptions and meanings... 'Light' in terms of Christianity vs 'light' in physics class Personal loading and association - ones own experiences and biases Intention - what is attempting to be communicated - subtle cues in tone, emphasis. Gesture... The rules of language so grammar, structure. The way the brain parses the flow of a sentence and when it expects nouns, verbs, adjectives etc With language it appears it is not seen directly at all - it is always constructed. So the recognition of language as an example of context, is a contextual act of the mind. I suppose then, experience (and meaning) is co-created and not given? Reality doesn't 'show up' - we must meet it half way as experience is definitely not something we passively receive. The mind is an essential part of the experience making machinery.

Balderdash! @PenguinPablo

tl:dr THE HORROR OF BEING KNOWN Within my own experience, as I have gotten older, people are less bothersome to me. I am completely at ease in social situations, in elevators, waiting in line, around my family or friends. I don't worry about judgement, I just move physically how I like. Comment how I like. I speak less in general, but don't hesitate to blurt things out or address total strangers. I don't share my opinions unless really probed for it. You could say I am steadfastly authentic - or stubbornly earnest The result is that curiosity is peaked from other people. This is the only part of the situation I personally struggle with. I don't know WHAT the other people want to know - I don't know what to give them. Because there is a large sense of them wanting to understand and grasp how this authenticity works. I want to be clear here - as much as this is entangled within ego, I don't use this to define myself because I don't really know what this quality is. And due to the probing of others, I am quite left with ??? because I myself do not know how to answer. So some of this is born of the fear I am going to cause them frustration when I cannot enunciate what I am doing that results in the carefree, accepting and earnest presence I naturally have. Often those around me go from very curious, probing - to very very turned off when I cannot answer - it is perceived as rejection. And through this process the other person holds me responsible for their reaction. I don't have a problem with this - I know its their problem. At the same time, I enjoy intimacy - but this problem causes others frustration. The 'other' always thinks I am holding something back. I am gatekeeping something - some knowledge. But there is nothing there! I can only imagine I could possibly have a block, or these individuals (almost bloody everyone!!) have some attachment issues or trauma. But I suspect a lot of this may be due to my process of getting close to others. It's through shared experience. Not words. Only actions shared. Experience shared. That's when I see the person more clearly and felt known. That, to me, is real intimacy. Not words. In the doing. Love is a verb. I think I just have a problem with language being the method of communication >.<

My scumbag hands betrayed me! I was quoted before I could edit - so I felt, I will leave it be