Karmadhi

@Breakingthewall Provoke Israel to over react and Israel did that. Now Israel reputation (also the USA) is lowest its even been. The world is mad at them. Anti Semitism around the world is on the rise. Also a lot more sympathy for Palestine and a two state solution is now being discussed which was out of the question. Lastly it is a desperate attempt for Arab support on the Palestinian cause which was almost gone. Saudi Arabia siging the treaty with Israel would be the death of Palestine. These guys are nationalists, they see it from a nationalistic perspective not humanitarian. So if 20.000 Palestinians need to be sacrificed for Palestine to still exist they will do it. A humanitarian liberal cares about preservation of life firstly, not preservation of a "state".

@DawnC @Nivsch @DawnC I dont think any sane person would say that Hamas fighters are more humane than the IDF, however there are factors to consider. 1. Hamas is way weaker so it will be more ruthless. 2. Hamas fighters have suffered a lot under Israel so they have reasons to be ruthless, many are orphans whose parents were killed by Israel. Meanwhile IDF soldiers are usually first world boys who never had any pain come from them from Gaza so their brutality is a lot less justifiable. 3. Israel is more educated, more developed society so their brutality is less acceptable. We hold them on higher standards. 4. Israel is an occupier and therefore its aggresson is seen as more unfair than Hamas agression which is that of the occupied fighting back (although inhumanely). I dont know what you think on these points.

Man USA is the bastion of fairness, democracy and human rights. Those are their core values. If USA does not treat everyone the same they are going against their core values which is a major red flag. The reason people are so mad at USA is precisely that. Russia does not have those values so when it does bad things people accept it because they are open about being the way they are. From USA we expect more.

Many claim Israel will annex Gaza if the refugees leave. Russia invaded Ukraine so the country will not join NATO and to take the lands which are mostly Russian and should not be in Ukraine in the first place. I doubt they would have annexed Ukrainian majority populated lands. If you are a Russian in Ukraine being annexed by Russia kinda makes sense. Now though considering the many people killed in Russia they will probably annex more than just the contraversial areas like Donbask where there was war even before the invasion. Maybe I see it differently but if X land is populated by X people historically it should belong to the mother country, and if war is done to take it it is justifible because those people will live in the country where they belong. The issue is invading country that is totally different from yours. So if Russia invades Georgia and annexes it it is a mistake. Or if Russia takes part of Ukraine which are mostly Ukranian.

Interesting how Hamas attack which was old textbook military stuff is seen as this barbaric attack while Israeli response which is also old textbook military stuff is seen as "ok". Both are doing pre international law tactics yet only 1 side is frowned upon by governments.

Is Israel sanctioned? Are its leaders being called up or will be called up for war crimes? It is not equal treatment. It does not matter if 20.000 liberals march into Washington against Israel policies, what matters is that the actual governments punish Israel which they are not and probably will not do. I have heard plenty of reports that they keep weapons in civilian homes which is why Russia bombs them but I do not know if these claims are true.

Bro I am neither Muslim nor Arab. I live in Europe and my family is not linked to Arabs in any way. I just feel like if the West left the Middle East alone, the world would be a better and safer place for everyone, including people like me living in the West. My country is pro Israeli politically fyi.

How come when Russia did similar things in Mauripol during its siege everyone lost their shit and called them "war criminals" "animals" etc. Double standards right here... Russia would treat Ukraine way better than Israel treats Palestine and it would not kick them out of their homes if it won the war in its beginnings yet the struggle for Ukrainians to fight is praised upon. When Palestinians do it is frowned upon. The steaks for Palestinians here is higher because Russia sees Ukraine as part of itself while Israel sees Palestinians as inferior. You are talking about legal technicalities. Point is if someone kicks you out of your home, their cause to take revenge on you is just and understandable. Palestinian hatred towards Israel is justified. It does not justify Hamas atrocities though, but it makes them understandable. Also add on top of it treating them like shit for decades on top of taking their land. Calling this an unprovoked attack is not honest. It was bound to happen.

@PurpleTree And why do they do those things in the West? It is cause and effect. The West attacked them illegally and fucked them over, therefore they do those attacks. Bin Laden used to be funded by Americans ones to fight the soviets, ISIS is the product of Western bullshit on the Middle East. Not to mention the totally illegal invasions of Libya or Iraq which were soveirgn countries. If the West minded its own business and let Middle East alone you would not have attacks to begin with. Dont ignore this part. A country is responsible for the terrorism it gets because of their bad policies. Terrorism is like when you feel sick, it shows that something is wrong with what you have been doing.

Through understanding that your policies created them and work towards a better life for people in Palestine, removing toxic people from governments and giving them their own state. By becoming the better man and fighting violence with love and maturity. Like Nelson Mandela did it. Also some surgical attacks for necessary self defense but never if the civilian casualties exceed your own. I know it is very very hard to do but a very very hard problem requires a very very hard solution. Since Israel is richer, has more support and more developed it has the responsibility to do this. And of course Hamas leaders should be imprisoned for war crimes. Proper punishment to the people that did it. But it can be done through years. A nice comment I recently read: "The occupier never has the right of self defense against the occupier and Israeli is an occupying power over the Palestinian people".

And why do they do those things in the West? It is cause and effect. The West attacked them illegally and fucked them over, therefore they do those attacks. Bin Laden used to be funded by Americans ones to fight the soviets, ISIS is the product of Western bullshit on the Middle East. Not to mention the totally illegal invasions of Libya or Iraq which were soveirgn countries. If the West minded its own business and let Middle East alone you would not have attacks to begin with. How come the attacks are not happening anywhere else?

I am not talking about Hamas here nor ISIS. I am talking about attacking sovereign countries against all international law like they did for Iraq or Libya.

@Lila9 So people should trust the Israeli government with openly racist people that has historically often lied over an international organization? Lol...

The victimhood here is sad I can also claim that the West is Anti-Arab and Muslim considering the huge number of Arab-Muslim countries they have attacked in the last 30 years or so, often without provocation.

@Nivsch Thank you for your detailed response. Would you agree that the settlements in the West Bank needs to stop and the current government with the PM need to be replaced with a less right wing, less racist government for peace to follow? Also, I read that the current PM was on the process of changing the judiciary system to enhance his political power and Israelis were angry about that. What are your thoughts on that?

@Nivsch Since you seem a reasonable Israeli, I have a question. How is the Nakba justified in Israeli society, I saw a video of a Jewish professor saying you cannot even mention it there. Are Israelis aware of it and if yes, how is it justified? Nakba - Wikipedia for info.

Leo has said that Jews tend to have a lot of power in the US lobbying and therefore US (and europe because of US) tend to support Israel a lot. What do you think about it? Also there is some sort of racism towards Arabs from the west unfortunately. I feel like if it was not Israel but another arab country attacked the same way Hamas did, they would not react the same way.

I would create a clear policy. 1 Hamas fighter death is not worth 1 Palestinian kid death. That rule would not be broken. Simple.

Their REP literally said we would do a different approach if it was Israeli civilians instead so they are not doing their best at all. If they said: "Yes we would kill them the same because there is no other solution" then I would believe that there is no other way. But there is Also do you realize that these policies will create a new Hamas, probably more ruthless than the old one. To kill 1 Hamas person, they efficectvly laid the seeds for multiple new Hamas people to rise up in time. It is like the Hydra, you cut 1 head and 3 others replace it. For their own good Israel should not do this. Jew reputation is at its historical lowest since the 1930s and all of the Arab countries are mad at Israel. You have 2.2 million people that all lost a relative and their house. Even 1% of them becoming terrorists, you got now a new Hamas, probably more ruthless. Also most people affected are young, which makes it easier to convince them to become future terrorists. Iran, ISIS, Hesbullah, Talibans etc etc will be there to guide them to it. How do you plan to deal with this? I am curious. I am talking for your own country's good here. It is bad for the West also. A part of these new refugees will find their way in the West and relocated there as war refugees. When you got 2.2 milion people you are guaranteed for new terrorist acts to happen. And i am not even counting the already million of Arabs living in the West that are mad at Israel and the west. Biden is facing a chance to loose some states just because of muslims that historically voted democrat to not vote anymore for democrats. Giving rise to Trump. These things are not being thought through well I feel.

@DawnC What about West Bank? Why Israelis treat them like shit? No Hamas in West Bank, and Israelis keep taking land. It is just adding more fuel to the fire. Do not ignore that...

@Tobia How come Bush did that? Interesting... Did USA Israel relation get closer since then or was Bush less pro Israel?

@Nivsch I saw this interview here which basically said: "Would Israeli do the same tactics if Hamas was hiding among Israelis. The guy said "No". Now, I do agree that Israeli will care more about their own citizen lives than another country, I cannot realistically expect them not to. However, it shows that if Israel truly wanted, they could find ways to hit Hamas with less collateral damage. They are choosing the easy way out. "Oh there is an enemy somewhere there? Fuck it, just blow the whole area it will get him in the end". "What about all the civilians there"? "Fuck them, they support Hamas so they deserve to die along with them". There was a Piers Morgan interview with an Israeli ex PM (bald guy dont remember his name) and the guy legit said: "Many people in Gaza support Hamas, they are not independent variables". If a PM has that attitude it clarifies a lot about the fact that indeed Israelis think that Palestinians in Gaza are with Hamas and are all seen as the enemy. It would explain a lot with this carpet bombing bs. Now maybe some older people may support Hamas (and that is understandable) but half dying are young kids which are 100000% innocent and therefore this is barbaric. Imagine saying "Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas in 2006, they like them" when literally half that are dying were not even born then. It is the same logic saying to German kids born in 1960s "You guys elected the Nazis so you like and support him'

You do realize Germany supports Israel because they feel guilt for the atrocities they commited on Jews, not because they think Israel is actually on the right. I mean kudos to them but Germany supporting you does not mean that you are on the right here... "Today the IDF admitted to killing 80+ civilians to kill 1 Hamas person. And they have no qualms about this. So this is their philosophy. At this rate they will kill 100,000 civilians just to kill 10% of Hamas. What will happen after the civilian death toll goes over 100,000? This is gonna create so much hatred of Jews around the world. Is that going to really make Jews feel safe?" This is Leo's comment. Would like your feedback on it. Especially on the barbaric philosophy that killing 80+ civilians is worth the life of 1 Hamas person. Do Israeli military even take into account the civilian deaths or they use some sort of Black Mirror vision goggles where they eliminate all civilians from their vision and only see Hamas and no other humans around? Honestly, educate me on this because I cannot understand how they think...

The fact that the Israeli government finds a ratio of 50 civilians dead and hundreds injured to kill 1 Hamas leader shows the fundamental issue in this war. A humane government would find another way, Palestinian civilians in large numbers lives should ALWAYS take priority over Hamas leaders deaths. They should get them in another way. It is not like they lack the money or technology or skill. It is a matter of will and humanity, things their government fundamentally lacks.

That is irrelevant. You sign something then you respect it or get punished. There are not "buts". Personally I do not think 50 civilians dead and hundreds wounded is worth 1 Hamas leader. I would get him another way and spare 50 people. This is the mindset of people that do not care about civilian deaths. 50 to 1 is unacceptable ratio. Dot. Those people are military people that are currently fighting and getting killed so I do not think war crime trials are necessary. They will fall in battle. If there are Hamas leaders chilling in other countries they should be arrested and sent to war crime trials for sure. Any news of it being replaced?