Karmadhi

I think invading soveirgn countries and killing a bunch of people in them is equally bad whether Ukraine or Iraq are invaded Law is law.

You can make an arguemnt that Eastern Ukraine has ties to Russia historically. I do not know the history to say with confidence. Many Russians see it that way. Just like Israelis see the West Bank as Israeli land, Azerbajan sees Karabakh as Azeri land etc. Yet nobody seems to complain much when they also illegally annex land there. Land claims never end. Countries need to respect their borders and stop taking more land. Which is why I do not support Russia on their war. My whole thread was about the fact that other countries do the same (I gave 2 exmaples) yet only Russia is punished properly. It is as if 4 people are speding in a highway and only 1 gets a proper fine. Does he deserve the fine? Totally. Did the other 3 deserve it but didnt get it? Yup.

International organizations. They are banned from FIFA, from Eurovision, from Olympics, most firms left Russia and they got kicked from SWIFT The victims of the invasion were ordinary Iraqis who died in the thousands, not just Saddam USA basically put a puppet Iraqi state which is not different from what Russia intended to do to Ukraine if Ukraine had not resisted You can NATO is not a threat to Russia, well Russia does not see it that way. They see how they started bombing other countries and they see them as a threat. To ask you again: Would USA tolerate Mexico or Canada join a pro Russian anti American alliance? USA literally invaded Cuba when they created an alliance with the Soviet Union. I am 1000% sure USA would do the same thing if they were in Russia's place given their track record.

What wrong did the thousands of Iraqi civilians do to be killed by USA bombing of Iraq?

Russia at first did not make it clear they wanted to annex Ukraine, they simply wanted to remove the Zelensky government with a pro Russian one Similar to what USA did to Iraq They were banning Russia from everything before any land annexation took place, it literally happened in the first week of the invasion You can make the argument today but not on the first week Also even if Russia wins, Ukraine will still exist. They simply want the Eastern part of Ukraine that is mostly Russian and Russia believes its theirs. Whether it is true or not, the point is that they do not want all of Ukraine, at least not when the war started Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 under similar excuses and Georgia today still exists as a seperate state. I think if Ukraine had surrendered they would have had a similar fate. Their resistance caused Russia to double down and become more and more radical since now there is a huge sunk cost to the invasion. And talking about annexation, Azerbajan invaded Armenia in 2022 and literally annexed land from them Israel is slowly annexing and talking land in the West Bank Where is the outrage there? I do not see Israel or Azerbajan banned from anything Not to mention Turkey that basically occupies Cyprus for decades We have tons of examples of such actions but only Russia is being banned from everything It is like that cop that sees 4 people speeding in the highway and decides to enforce the law only on 1 of them

You dont seem to share the same sentiment for Ukraine though, you want them to keep fighting instead of capitulating to Russia Double standards much?

Is that the default governance of a stage orange or is America the case of toxic orange? Can you have a healthy orange democracy that is not an oligarchy or stage orange eventually by design will lead to an oligarchy?

Noted! Thing is that I do understand it intellectually, but still emotionally I tend to see it as bad or unevolved in a way. Like I assign a value to it. Your videos have helped a lot. What angers me the most are double standards and hypocrisy I agree with you on that. I told even others who were shitting on Biden about that, that Trump will be way worse. I think not voting for Kamala and choosing Trump is not even being too green, it is just stupid. Trump is cryptonite to Green.

They resonate to me a lot How do I grow out of it? I live in a pretty green place and if there is no green, it is orange and blue Yellow is hard to get to Your content is possibly the only yellow I have in my life and even in this forum most do not seem yellow to me I must confes when I started watching your content 5 years ago (during first lockdown) I was pretty orange with some green and a bit of blue. But an orange center of gravity. Now I would say my center of gravity is green with some orange and veryyyy little blue I really find Spiral dynamics and all these models interesting so that is the yellow in me However it is hard for me to apply it in real life outside simply putting people in categories And even then sometimes a blue/orange actor can trigger me more than a red or blue actor which is fundamentally still green mindset with yellow knowldege

What do you think of Mehdi Hasan? To me he is the best out of the leftist people in terms of articulation, debating skills and overall moral development Also pretty relaxed compared to Cenk or Destiny that get super emotional and childish He is definetly stage green but I have not seen from him a lot of the toxic components of Green which you can see in some other commentators He seem pretty grounded, healthy Green The Jubilee debate where he argued against 20 far right Americans showed it Crazy restraint from him considering how insulted he got on his face

I have seen critizing Israel is becoming more and more legally problematic in the USA since Trump came back so I am not sure you guys have proper freedom of speech either. During Biden it was better.

They were not "casualities of war". They were part of a systemic genocidal campaign to rid Eastern Europe from Slavs and populate it with Ethnic Germans. Belarus lost 25% of its population and 95% of those civilians died AFTER the country was already occupied. 600 villages with all their inhabitants were destroyed. Similar things in Russia and Ukraine. Overall close to 15 million Soviet civilians died during the Second World War (if we exclude all the Jewish). Most of them were killed in genocidal attacks similar to the Holocaust. If you research, many people who died in the concentration camps were not Jewish but Polish, Russian, Gay, Romani etc What people forget is that the Jewish people were not the only group the Nazis wanted to exterminate. It also included Romanis, LGBT, Slavs etc It is offensive to call such things "casualities of war" Google Generalplan Ost

I think the job of loud lefiests like Cenk is to increase awareness and create some sort of moral revolt in people that can help tackle unfairness in the world Centrists are better in finding solutions once people become aware and willing to discuss solutions First you need to get people up which leftiests do very well Also Leo I am pretty centrist on a lot of topics like taxes, sexuality, Ukraine and immigration It is mostly on Gaza where i become full blown leftie

I never said it is a bad thing. I simply stated that Destiny to me seems more centrist than a leftie. That is how the conversation started So we somewhat agree on this Also thank you for your responses, it is quite lucky of us to have someone as Wise as you openly discuss with us.

They are pretty good at making sense of Israeli terrorism so. To me it is just an anti Muslim and anti Arab bias that when they do bad things it is terrorism and when the rest do bad things it is "complicated". Double standards. I notice Americans are conditioned in this way since 9/11 to associate anything bad Arabs or Muslims do with terrorism and when other entities do similar or worse actions they use different terms for it. Pure bias. It is the trademark of a leftie to empathize with low developmetn societies Which makes me think Destiny is more centrist than leftist.

I dont think Hamas is still relevant to this conversation It is about ethnic cleansing/genocide at this point You could make the "Hamas" argument in the first year or so They wont rule Gaza anymore anyway, also all their top leadership has already been killed Also defending the side that has Smotrich and Ben Gvir is not easy either Do you see what they say? A clip for you: The 1 for every 50 btw came from Nazi Germany that had such a tactic to supress partisan attacks on the Eastern Front "The number of hostages to be shot was calculated based on a ratio of 100 hostages executed for every German soldier killed and 50 hostages executed for every German soldier wounded, a formula devised by Adolf Hitler with the intent of suppressing anti-Nazi resistance in Eastern Europe" The irony This is what Israeli defenders are defending or justifying The Iranian government is also pretty bad yet Israel did not do the same to Iran Hezbollah is also pretty bad and Israel did not do the same to Lebanon Difference

How can a leftie like Destiny fall for a bias which is condusive of hardcore religious nutcases and far right government supporters? That I cannot understand Destiny is pretty informed on this matter, he even went to Israel to tell IDF troops to stop recording their war crimes.

I do not think what Israel is doing now is complicated It is just wrong and should be condemned and not supporter nor justified DIfferent issue on the first 2 months of the war where you could make arguments from both sides My issue is Destiny still defending Israel in August 2025, not in October 2023 Piers Morgan for example who had similar position to Destiny with time changed his mind because he realized Israel actions are no longer defendable and just wrong. People that still defend Israel in summer 2025 today are either paid by them or morally rotten Ironically the only Western government that does so is Trump which you so much despise

So if someone had mostly good positions but was also a Trump voter (fan) you would still take him seriously?

That position tells me all I need to know It is like you judging people based on them supporting Trump and using that 1 position to put them in a category regardless of their other opinions on other topics. You immedietly disregard them because that 1 position is so telling Same with Destiny here And it is not about how outraged you are. Nobody here is sayiing Destiny to be as outraged as Cenk But Destiny does not give a single shit Total lack of empathy is not the same as moderate empathy

Such as all invasions are Nobody here says it is ok what they did, so I do not know why you are talking about it The difference between Russia and Iraq for example is that Russia has a lot of reasons, which are legitimate in their eyes to carry out this invasion USA had no legitimate reasons, they were just lying Deluded reasons which are legitimate to the invador are better than pure lies I am sure Russia geniounly believes their crap And I have not seen a single person in this forum defend it or say it is a good action This whole forum is pretty aligned with that issue What changes here in opinions are the motivations behind the action, not the action being good or not.

Please do not call Destiny a leftist Leftiest have empathy for oppressed people and he has 0 empathy for the monstrous crimes happening in Gaza and is very biased towards Israel He is centrist Leftiest on some topics like gender and right wing when it comes to oppressed people like Palestinians A proper leftiest would get furious at the matter Like Cenk or Hasan or Vanush do Destiny to me has lost all moral credibility when he tells IDF soldiers to stop recording war crimes because it is bad PR Total lack of humanity from him

Maybe he thinks Ukraine is not a democracy? A lot say that Also, why does the fact that a country is a democracy or not matter even? Invasion is wrong regarldess You have a democracy bias as if invading democracies is somewhat worse when in the end people die nonetheless

I will give me 5 cents why: 1. Scale The death toll of civilians and especially childreen in Gaza is magnitute higher than in Ukraine if we take into account the populations of each entity. In Ukraine there have been around 700 or so childreen killed meanwhile in Gaza close to 20.000. Overall the civilian death toll is also higher in Gaza as well (at least 50.000 compared to 12.000-20.000 in Ukraine) We need to take into account the war in Ukraine has been going on for 1 year more and Ukraine has around 20 times Gaza population. Regarding Mauripol, the Human rights Watch did a detailed study which estimated around 8000 deaths. Which is why I said 12.000-20.000 2. Footage This is huge. In Gaza we are bombared every day with horrible footage of injured and dead childreen and adults. In Ukraine all we see is destroyed buildings. Friends of mine have told me "In Ukraine I only saw some destroyed building so it is not that bad". If people do not see death, it means things are not bad as if there was death, they would see it. Just like they do in Gaza. This may be the most important reason why people think Ukraine is not causing much suffering to civilians, like Gaza war is. 3. Intensity In Israel whenever there is a strike or a bombing campaign, it leads to dozens if not hundreds of deaths. A single missle strike often has killed close to 100 people (mostly civilians). Meanwhile in Ukraine we often see in the news that Russia launched 100 missles and 300 drones and from all these maybe 2-3 people were killed. This gives the impression that these attacks are not designed to mass murder civilians because of this simple reasoning. "1 missle in Gaza killed 50 people and 20 missles in Ukraine killed 3 people, so Russia is not trying to mass kill civilains like Israel. So it is not that bad". This is how people think. 4. Feeling of complicity While people in the West have sanctioned Russia (via their governments) to the detriment of their own economies, they still trade and have relations with Israel. This causes people from these countries to feel guilty, complict and angry at their governments. There is no reason to be angry with Western governments regarding Ukraine where they have done everything they can to support them (Trump administration being a potential exception) 5. White priviledge bias There is a general view in many countries that white people are priviledged and therefore they do not suffer as much as other more oppressed groups. Therefore, a war where whites only are involved is not as bad as a war where whites kill non whites. 6. Intent The Israeli government has made endless genocidal statements towards Gaza. The same has not been said in Russia. They are much more discrete and in general do not reveal as much. At least, it does not reach Western medias. The same goes with ordinary citizens in Israel openly supporting and cheering on when civilians die in Gaza. You have endless videos of Israeli regual citizens saying they want to kill all Gazans. Such videos do not happen from Russian citizens cheering on Ukranians being wiped out. Or if they do, they do not reach the West. 7. Actual destruction The scale of destruction in Gaza makes anything in Ukraine look like nothing, especially when it comes to major cities. I have seen footage of Mauripol and it seems 10x better than Gaza does today. 8. Missunderstanding People tend to think that Russia is given a free pass to do what they want morally by Western liberals but that is false. Nobody here says it is ok what Russia is doing. But due to the reasons I wrote above they choose to focus their anger at Israel instead. There is only so much anger someone can have. I am sure if the Gaza war had not happened, people would be much more angry at Russia. Ok guys, here are some of the reasons why I think we have this phenomenon I have noticed it as well and sometimes I mention it to people I know who seem to fall for it. Both wars are horrible and neither is acceptable

I do not know why you think we are somehow pro Russia or China I cannot speak for all the people tagged but I personally support Ukraine and was horrified when Russia started the invasion However, Russia was from day one condemned and sanctioned by Western countries, something that is not happening with Israel I think that double standards is what angers people the most