Karmadhi

I think 400 or so killed were soldiers. That is why I called it a war crime, because civilians also got killed in mass. Keep in mind in Israel military service is mandatory for both genders so everyone over 18 has served in the IDF. It does not justify killing ex soldiers off duty but it is understandable why they would kill them with such hatred. How would you feel if you were a Jew and got your hands on ex Nazi soldiers? Killing children's is totally unjustifiable and horrible though. If I could I would see the organizers of those killings and the actual soldiers that commited them either dead or life in some shit prison. Also I think they overblow the amount of people dying in such horrible ways (although not the way how they died). What you said may be true but scale matters a lot. And if you want to talk about suffering, you know dozens of childreen are having their limbs amputated without anasthetisa because of Israel ruthless bombing and lack of supplies going to hospitals? You think having your arm cut out is any more humane than the stuff you wrote above? You know that when one of the hospitals in Gaza had to evacuate the IDF did not allow the premature babies in incubators to leave and when the doctors returned during the ceasefire they found them rotting, long dead from starvation. How are these scenes any better than what happened during October the 7th? 2 babies are confirmed to be killed in total and I think 40 childreen in total so far. Although horrible, compare it with 7000 Palestinians childreen dead. You are claiming as if babies were killed in the hundreds which is not true. Yes, I sent a clip of a building attacked where only 1 floor was destroyed. Apply that as the norm. I love how you keep ignoring the IDF people legit saying "WE ARE AIMING FOR DESTRUCTION, NOT ACCURACY". How can you say "there is no better solution"? Come on... Occupation and colonizing are different things. Colonizing is when you kick out the native population and settle your own people. You did not have millions of Italians get kicked out. The same people lived in the same territory with different governments. Colonizing used to be morally acceptable in the past, just like what Hamas did was. You think what Hamas did is special? It used to be textbook war practice applied by every country for most of human history. However it is not anymore in 2023 which is why people rightfully denounce it. Neither is what Israel did and is doing now with taking more and more Palestinian territory. If you claim that Israel should not be denounced since every country did something similar to what Israel is doing/did , then by that logic also Hamas should not be denounced because also every country did similar stuff to what Hamas did. Apartheid regime which Israel has is also not acceptable anymore in a first world country although it was in the past (example USA before civil rights movement).

Palestine has also right to defend itself. What Hamas did is not even 1/10 of the collective trauma Palestine has suffered under Israel. How come a war crime is only "horrible" when Hamas does it. It may be so bad to you because you are from there, I get it. However if you want to be objective such massacres are very common in wars. I honestly do not know why Israel expects the rest of us to care more about this specific massacre? Russia also did a similar massacre in Bucha against Ukraine. So did Israel with carpet bombing refugee camps. 600 or something civilian's dead, mostly adults compared to 7000 childreen dead so far. Why should we care more about those 600? Especially considering the enormous amount of lies about the massacre like 40 beheaded babies? And if you want to talk hostages, Israel has thousands of childreen and women in prisons which has arbritary arrested and imprisoned under inhumane conditions for things as silly as throwing stones at soldiers. Again, when 200 Israelis get taken hostage you loose your shit when Israel has taken 20x more through the years in West Bank. I expect Israel to react like this because it is their people and I do not blame them but why should the rest of us care more about you, especially considering you are the aggressors in the first place. And yes this started decades ago. It is an ongoing thing. What you are doing is like taking the bombing of Dresden which was indeed a terrible war crime and saying "Germany is the victim poor them", ignoring all the massacres and aggression they started in the first place. In the eyes of most of the world Israel started this by colonizing the native population living there. If they knew their place and stayed within the UN borders this would be a different situation. How come Palestinians are pushed all the way to Gaza? You realize most of its population are refugees created by Israel. And Israel is the victim? The current border of Israel is way bigger than the UN agreed border of 1947. ALL of that land difference is pure theft. Einstein, a Jew, was wise enough to understand why this was a bad idea. I know this cannot be realistically undone anymore but at least stop acting like the victims when the chickens come home to roast. When the Russians were murdering and raping German civilians in Berlin the world did not see Germany as the victims. Neither were the Japanese seen as the victims when Hiroshima was nuked. The world not seeing Israel as the victim here either, is proof of what I am saying.

Then how come 90 percent plus are civilians? If a building is mostly terrorists the ratio would be more even. Wepons being there is not an excuse to kill kids sorry. Still a war crime.

@Lila9 @Nivsch Can you please see these two clips and give me an Israeli pov I found them extremely disturbing. The second one is from an ex IDF general. https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0fz_MxOZET/?igshid=NzBmMjdhZWRiYQ== https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0dy5xANB3f/?igshid=NzBmMjdhZWRiYQ==

And how exactly is carpet bombing civilians where more than 90% killed are civilians , creating a humanitarian disaster and collective punishment a solution to the problem you said? Nobody says Israel should not take out Hamas, most of the world including many Arab countries do not support them. The issue is that they are going around it in the worst possible way to the point where it is just an excuse to beat Palestinians into submission so they never dare to rise again. Such war tactics, although used in the past are quite barbaric by modern morality and should not be endorsed. Israel could have easily tried to do precise strikes but it did not even bother. Since you used a Hamas chart, Israel IDF said "We are aiming for destruction not accuracy". There are videos of Israeli officials saying "turn Gaza into Dresden" or "nuke gaza". How exactly are these statements any more evolved than Hamas charter? Many elements in Israeli government are stage blue fanatics.

1. Precision striking of Hamas infrastructure. I saw a clip where Israel literally managed to destroy 1 floor in the middle of a building. The building was standing, it was untouched EXCEPT the specific floor which was blown out. That is what surgical attack is. If it was employed in Gaza widespread the civilian casualities would be reduced dramatically. However their own Generals said "We are aiming for destruction, not accuracy" which is a flawed policy. So Israel is fully capable to save innocent Palestinians from dying but it choses not too. Will send the clip later. This is how you get rid of Hamas without radicalizing an entire new generation of people. And I do agree Hamas needs to be eliminated. 2. Start teaching at schools the past atrocities like the Nakba and apologize for them. Germany apologizes for the Holocaust and other bullshit they did. Also Israelis should become aware that their country was built on the back of others. Same way USA for example was built. USA citizens are aware of it though and although it cannot be undone, they do recognize it. Israelis are totally in the dark and think they found an empty desert and built utopia there. Nakba cannot even be mentioned. See the difference. 3. Stop indoctrination and dehumanization of Palestine and Arabs. Just like racist talk in USA gets you canceled, the same should happen for anti Palestine talk in Israel. 4. Remove the current corrupt right wing government with a less racist and power hungry government without radicals like Ben Gavir. 5. Stop the illegal settlements and give heavy punishments for everyone that tries to do it instead of funding them. 6. Stop putting Palestinian kids to jail in inhumane conditions just for throwing rocks and other small bullshit. Give more fair hearings to them too. This applies to West Bank. 7. Start applying with Interntional Laws and actually listen to UN instead of insulting them and denying them visas whenever they say you are commiting war crimes according to international law which you yourself have agreed to follow. These are some of the things I can think of. I am sure there is much more but I lack the knowledge to add. If you dissagree with any of these, you or any pro Israeli here feel free to write your points.

Mass killing kids and breaking international laws unfortunately is not I saw recently a British UN in Gaza saying "This is a war on childreen". A guy from a country that supports Israel that is actually in Gaza since 2 months says that. It shows so much about what is going on there.

@zazen Nothing surprises me about IDF anymore at this point...

@Twentyfirst No no the IDF is professional moral army while Hamas are barbarians. If there is any proof that shows that IDF is also barbarians then by default you anti semitie

I love how the Pro Israelis here are quick to point out Hamas rapes and torture of civilians but when countless sources are sent here that say that the IDF has done similar stuff throughout the years, they are silent and conveniently ignore them. Biases 101

@Lila9 Issue is that Benjamin get support from the West while Yahya Sinwar does not. He is a terrorist for sure. Yet Benjamin is not. When both are horrible. This is the issue. Nobody denies Yahya sucks.

Thinking Hamas can destroy Israel is equally deluded. They can just poke at it. Not more. When ur president of Russia you cannot afford a superpower at your backdoor. NATO is mostly USA, not just Europe and USA has illegally invaded countries and bombed civilians so it is not so crazy to think they might be a threat. Technically USA in the last 30 years has been equally if not more involved in wars compared to Russia

Im not an expert in Russia but I know many that lived there and they were not that poor. Like people in cities where they lived. Sure its not western europe but the world has way way poorer. The country itself is classified as a upper middle economy.

Sure but dont you think that is inherently racist since whites tend to be better educated due to better upbringings?

@Vrubel Dude they were driven from their homes and put into a big prison controlled by Israel before Hamas even came to power. All the areas around Gaza are not even Israeli to begin with. Its stolen land. Also Israel blocked them having airports etc.

Do some research before making such absurd claims. It is more like: The people that have not suffered are less justified in barbarism than those that suffered. Most Israelis have not suffered compared to most people in Gaza. Russia is the largest country in the world and biggest nuclear power. Those alone give them a lot of power and influence. Also they have influence over a lot of countries, ex USSR ones and now also becoming popular with Africa. Also friends with China. I would put Russia below USA and China. However Russia has a lot of control and it quickly making friends with fast developing countries in Africa. I would also like that but unfortunately Russia is still too underdeveloped to see the West as an ally. Also the West is quite judgemental about Russia and wants to make them USA s bitch. Russia has a lot of pride for that. So here we are. Ideally I would see Russia as part of EU and all the continent united under 1. Maybe one day. However as long as USA controls EU it will not happen unfortunately. I know many that live in Russia and they said that life barely changed after the war. People live the same. Meanwhile Western Europe has a big energy crisis and most of the middle class is suffering. Cutting gas supply from Russia was a big mistake. Crimea being part of Ukraine was already a big mistake to being with. Why should a place where majority are Russians be part of Ukraine that does not even have Russian as an official language? It is absurd. Belgium for example has less than 1% of its population German speakers, yet German is an official language. This is what true democracy looks like. Ukraine was anti Russian in some ways before the war, at least language wise. There could be if NATO joined. You cannot take that risk. Keep in mind Russia has historically been invaded through Ukraine so it cannot afford such carelessness. Nazis invaded USSR the same way. They have historical reasons to be paranoid. Still an illegal invasion of a sovereign country. Keep in mind Russia at first did not plan to actually annex Ukraine, just overthrow their anti Russian government and install a pro Russian one. Not saying it is right but it makes sense.

For sure Palestinians could have done things better. Good never ends. However considering their situation it is a lot harder for them to be expected to be perfect. I mean people in Gaza have family members dead, live in shit conditions etc. Meanwhile Israelis never had anyone die and live in rich land. By default who is expected more to behave properly? It is not rocket science. Leo said it perfectly in an old thread. It is about a multipolar world and not being USA s bitch. USA wants a uni polar world with itself at the core and Russia does not want that. It has nothing to do with imperial glory. It has to do with Russian value systems not corrupted by Western values which they see as dangerous. Crimea should not be in Ukraine. It has no Ukranians and a referendum done like 97% wanted to be in Russia. So it should be part of Russia. Ukranian nationalists can cry all they want about it. I used to think Russia did a big mistake with attacking Ukraine but from what I am seeing they are doing fine with all the sanctions while the West of Europe is struggling economically with the big gas price increase. Especially Germany. So I do not know who suffered more here. Palestine suffered a lot more than Russia did so I do symapthize a lot with Palestinians and see them as victims. I do not see Russia as victims nor support what they do. I just understand where they are coming from. Also can you please reply to this: How come when USA invaded Cuba because Russia wanted to put nuclear missles there it was ok but when Russia does the same with Ukraine everyone looses their shit? See the double standards. Russia having NATO (USA) missles at its backyard is ok but when USA has Russian missles at its backyard they loose their shit and invade. And that is apparently ok. When Russia does it, it is not. Hypocrisy

A big issue which comes from Western propaganda is linking Hamas with religion when it is actually about land. The hatred they have towards Jews is not because of religion, it is because of how they were treated. They might be stage red but religion has nothing to do with their actions. If you grew up in a man made concentration camp you would sing a different tune.

Because of how they were treated by Israelis. It is cause and effect. If Israel treated them well they would not have the incentive to do this. You are ignoring all the shit they went through. If you were born in Gaza, you would be happy if you killed Jews too. And Israel is the one that put them in that spot. Sure but Hamas cannot wipe out Israel. NATO can wipe out Russia. Big difference. This is some insane bias you have here. To YOU they are good. To Russia they are a powerful organization that was created against them. They have illegally invaded countries like Iraq so it is not like they do not wage war. From Russia POV they are a serious threat and therefore cannot be allowed at their doorstep. You cannot allow that sort of threat next to you. Just ask yourself this. If Russia put its nuclear missles in Cuba how would USA react. Oh yes, they reacted by invading Cuba. So USA is just like Russia when it comes to this. Just to be clear, I do not support what Russia did but I do understand why they did it. Nor are their war crimes justifiable. However the death toll in Ukraine from what I saw is 10.000 civilians in 2 years of war and a population of 40.000.000 compared to 15.000 civilians in 2 months and a population of 2 million. Also 500 kids dead in Ukraine compared to 5000 in Gaza. So Ukraine seems a lot more humane war to me.

Well Gaza has suffered a lot more from Israel than Ukraine from Russia since decades so it makes sense Hamas will be more hateful than Ukranians. Because fighting is happening in their own land, they have no chance to show their "humanity". If Ukraine started invading Russian towns full of civilians then you can say they are "better". Until then you cannot prove it. How you treat civilians shows how "humane" your army is. But I would agree that Russians are very ruthless. Proof for such claims? They had their current government for over 8 years and it was still very corrupt and poor. They did not do any reforms until the war started when it came to cleaning up corruption. Not allowing it is one thing. Calling it "an existential threat" is another. Killing 20x more civilians and commiting genocide is not a solution to a few hundred dead. Also, a few hundred dead if it is a legit security concern to you, imagine the threat of your whole country getting destroyed and everyone dying. That is the threat Russia faces with NATO at its door which you keep ignoring. I do not know how you can compare having the biggest army in the world which was created for the sole purpose to threaten you with a terrorist group. Because Israel and Russia are in different levels. For Russia Putin is not a downgrade, for Israel it is. They can do much better. The issue is that they had this government before the attack, there were settlers expansion before the attack. Palestinians were treated like shit before the attack. That treatment is what caused the attack in the first place. It is because of security concerns. USA literally did the same when USSR placed missles in Cuba. This is not about expansion, it is about security concerns. Yes he will not allow NATO at its backdoor. Neither would USA allow it if it is was in Russia s place. It is normal. The oppressor when attacked back gets less sympathy than the oppressed. If Israel was the oppressed here then leftists would care a lot more. It may sound unfair but that is how leftists operate. And yes leftists do call Israel an oppressor. You may disagree, you do you.

@Vrubel "In 2016, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch received several credible allegations of abuse and torture by the regiment.[234] Reports published by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) documented looting of civilian homes and unlawful detention and torture of civilians between September 2014 and February 2015 "by Ukrainian armed forces and the Azov regiment in and around Shyrokyne".[235][236] Another OHCHR report documented an instance of rape and torture, writing: "A man with a mental disability was subject to cruel treatment, rape and other forms of sexual violence by 8 to 10 members of the 'Azov' and the 'Donbas' battalions (both Ukrainian battalions) in August–September 2014. The victim's health subsequently deteriorated and he was hospitalized in a psychiatric hospital."[236] A report from January 2015 stated that a Donetsk Republic supporter was detained and tortured with electricity and waterboarding and struck repeatedly on his genitals, which resulted in his confessing to spying for pro-Russian militants.[236]: 20 ". Actually if you do a bit research they have indeed linked with torture and other messed up stuff so they are quite fucked up as a regiment. Russia s GDP per capita is like 5 times larger than Ukraine before the war started so I think Ukraine is the shithole here Compare that to the most powerful army in the world at your doorstep that can kill everyone in your country if they want to. You cannot compare them. Yes a few hundred people dead will not hurt Israel much. We are talking on a country level here. Comparing Hamas with NATO is like comparing an ant to a dragon. Putin does not decrease the level of democracy of Russia since Russia never had any to begin with. Meanwhile Israel did and their current PM actively tried to undermine it. Therefore relative to the level of democracy in their respective countries Benjamin is worse. Probably same way Israel did. Both bomb without caring about civilians dead. If you think Israel actually cares about the civilians dead in Gaza you are very naive. They cannot even prove that X person here is Hamas, they just go by guessing from an intelligence service that could not spot an attack from miles away. It is not credible. When most of Gaza at this point is razed to the ground you cannot really say that Russia would do much more. If 90% of Gaza was not attacked then you could say "Russia would have razed it to the ground", however Israel also is doing that. I am not saying that there are not decent non racist people in Israel. However their current government which are the ones that actually take decisions are quite racist and radical. I saw clips of deputies calling for "Gaza to be turned into Dresden" among other things. Also I have seen countless videos of people mocking Palestinians or even celebrating at the bombings so they have a lot of people that are radicalized unfortunately. Way way more than countries like France, UK etc. If you find me some proof I will change my position. My bias is civilians getting treated equally and not only getting love if they are from specific countries. No love for Iraq childreen. Endless love for Ukranian and Israeli childreen. Dying by bombs or by a sword is irrelevant.

Ukraine did indeed attack areas in Donetsk which are Russian majority and they had an infamous Azof Brigate which could be compared with Hamas in terms of how brutal they are. However, issue is not Ukraine but NATO having access to Ukranian soil, very close to Russia. Allowing them to place Nuclear Missles very close to Russia. When USA had a similar threat during the Cuban Missle Crisis (Soviets wanted to put nuclear missles in Cuba, close to USA), the USA literally invaded Cuba (Bay of Pigs). Hamas is ruthless but they are not a big threat to Israel, they can never go more than a couple of kilometers into Israel soil. Meanwhile NATO can literally wipe Russia from the face of the earth easily. Hamas is an ant for Israel in comparison. They can never destroy Israel no matter what bullshit slogans they say. Although the attack on 7th of October was horrible, it was barely a scratch on the country as a whole from a survival pov. And that was Hamas at their peak. However it is also highly racist and does not treat everyone the same, having strong elements of an aparthait state. It is indeed democratic for white Jews, which is not everyone there. Also, in what universe do liberal values are absolutely superior to other values? That is a very biased statement. Maybe Russians prefer their own values over Western values? How do you know that? Putin has way more support than most Western leaders. Netanyahu actively tried to undermine democracy and rule of law, so does Putin. However, unlike Russia, Israelis do not like that. So for Israel he is a worse leader. In terms of war crimes both are quite ruthless. The amount of brainwashing Israeli kids go through on hating Arabs and thinking they are chosen is also horrible. Not much different from Russian brainwashing. Since kids they are taught Arabs are evil and our enemy. There is no proof that Russia will continue its conquest into Poland and further West. The most they will invade is Moldova and even that is not confirmed. Russia will never touch NATO, so the West is safe. They do not understand relativism and worthship democracies without realizing that they are horrible and do not work for every country. I do agree democracy is better than dictatorship but there is something that is worse than dictatorship. That is civil war and anarchy, chaos. And that is EXACTLY what underdeveloped countries go through once you topple their dictators. Libya, Iraq being two examples. So for these countries, dictatorship is the highest good at the moment. In the future this will change of course. Everything at its time. I see Iran for example tired of their dictatorship, hopefully it will be removed once their Leader dies.

There was a NCY study that stated that Israel used false evidence regarding that attack. Which is why I say, nothing they say is to be trusted. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-video.html The article. Now maybe it was indeed a Hamas misfire but Israel is fully morally capable of doing such an attack when it killed over 80 on a refugee camp and bombed countless other hospitals and UN schools.

@Vrubel So when the West basically threatens Russia security way more than Hamas could ever threaten Israel by telling Ukraine to join Nato and Russia tries to stop it, that is "horrible". Double standards are immense. Let me rephrase what you said from Russian POV. "You cannot heavily threaten a superpower and expect no response". Yet when Russia responds they get way more hate than Israel does for defending themselves.

I said so because you used to believe their lies about hospital bombings and called them "credible". Happy to see you realized they are not more trusthworthy than countries like Russia.