Karmadhi

Sure there is. Same reasons blacks were not allowed to sit next to whites on buses in the past. The reason is racism and dehumanization of Palestinians. It is not rocket science.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-government-tortures-children-by-keeping-them-in-cages-human-rights-group-says-9032826.html https://www.pjcvt.org/blog/palestinian-kids-dont-belong-in-cages-support-hr-2407/ https://www.savethechildren.net/news/“treated-animals”-palestinian-children-face-inhumane-treatment-israeli-run-prisons "First world liberal democracy" my ass...

Considering this is the most posted threat (251 pages and counting) and we have here 5 or so Israelis discussing with dozens of people from different countries that are critical of Israel and almost no consensus shows how hopeless this situation is. Imagine if the people critical of Israel were not third parties like us but Palestinians, the people they actually have to negotiate with.

I never said it is as bad as the Jewish Ghettos during the Holocaust. But it is not how a first world liberal democracy treats people. It is quite old fashioned. This stuff is nothing new in history. It is all textbook stuff. The issue is that in Israel you have a 21st Century country that treats Palestine with old fashioned racist treatment. Of course it is no near as bad as the Jewish Ghettos, but that is a very low bar to set. Also Palestine did not put the Jews in those ghettos. They have less rights. Someone with a Palestinian passport living abroad cannot go to West Bank but a Belgian can. Imagine.. I know because I know people that could not go there because they could not enter Israel because of it. Talk about "equal treatment". Also their economy is way worse of partially because of Israel occupation (among other reasons). Hard to develop while being occupied. I think you tend to ignore that Israel is an occupying force on the region and kicked millions out. Shooting kids to practice your aim and laughing about it is not "alert". So a 7 year old with a stone the size of his small hand can seriously hurt a soldier??? You do realize they lack the strength. I am talking about kids, usually younger than 10 here, not grown adults. And I am not talking about just taking the kids into custody but putting them into a military trial (only country in world that does this), then jailing them for 6 months while they spend the night in a cage on the cold. It is extremally ruthless. I saw a documentary with a British reporter where this thing was happening (putting kids in cages to spend the night on the cold) in the past until human rights organizations forced Israel to stop doing it some years ago. Do you think first world liberal democracies in the west like Germany, Norway or Ireland would do such things? Imagine the outrage of the public. Meanwhile in Israel this was endorsed and nobody cared.

And then why are they so pro Israel biased? What do they gain from Israel? If neoliberals control the media why do they jerk off Israel like this? Israel is not a gigantic economy or anything. Something is fishy here...

Considering the insane pro Israeli bias that Western Media has had while they commit a genocide in real time, Kayne claims that Jews control the media do not seem so absurd anymore. Any sane person would denounce them instead of just going along with such atrocities.

I think we had a missunderstanding. I was referring to whether Jews when they arrived in Palestine during WW2 were treated as bad as Palestinians are treated in the West Bank through the last decades. And I gave examples of the treatment above. So I am talking about the way Jews in Palestine were treated between 1940 to 1947 or so. I asked because you rejected my claim that Jews were treated with open arm by Palestine between 1940 to 1947. My question was, was that treatment as bad as the stuff I wrote above?

Sure, but I do heavily feel Israel can do much better than Benjamin and Ben Gavir in government.

@Lila9 All of this happened BEFORE October 7th attack and I am not talking about Gaza here. I dont know what October 7th has to do with any of this. Very blue to me. Not red, they seem more of a nazi bullet to the head heartless type and little emotions while Hamas is more emotional, screaming and kills you with a sword. Nazis vs Mongolians. Both are bad of course. But that is my opinion.

Were they treated worse than Palestinians get treated by Israelis on the West Bank? By that I mean: Did they kill childreen for fun to test their aim and laugh about it? Did they abduct Jewish childreen and burn them alive? Did they kill people for no reason? Did they put kids in cages in jails for basically no reason? Did they put thousands of kids in jails? Did they destroy their homes and settle there? And before you say "these did not happen", you can find interntional reports saying so. Some of the stuff is on footage and I have seen it myself. Horrible stuff. That are some of the hundreds of atrocities Israelis does in West Bank If yes then I stand corrected.

That virus was created by Israel s policies, nothing else. Israel basically bullied someone for decades and now when they get hit back hard they start crying about it. Hamas is indeed a virus, but it is a Israeli created virus. Do you want me to send you the old videos of Benjamin saying we need Hamas in Gaza because it aids our own rule? Videos from some years ago. If you want I will try to find them for you.

Many chose to immigrate to Israel. And that was indeed wrong. They do it against Palestinians, people that welcomed them with open arms when their precious European friends were wiping them out. Palestinians treated Jews living there 1000x better than Europeans did for centuries yet the ones that had their land stolen and were oppressed/murdered were Palestinians. Talk about justice...

Do you know what raw survival is? It is when your enemy can take over your country and wipe out all your people. Do you really believe Hamas could have taken over Israel?

The 18.000 civilian dead shows otherwise. Ukraine war happening for 2 years and 10.000 civilians dead from 40 milion population. Here 2 months and 2x dead out of a population 20 times smaller. Apparently I found a more moral war

So justice is biased if you are Israel?

@Leo Gura Do you think now Israel will face legal consequences of its policies, the same way Yugoslavia, Russia or Iraq did?

One of the most selfish, power hungry, ruthless and dangerous leaders on Earth. Easily Putin, maybe Kim Jong Un level. He must be thrown to jail asap.

@Nabd At this point I think moving the concept of Israel into another piece of land would benefit the greater good of the region. They are just a curse that brings only trouble in the Middle East. If there was a referendum to create a Jewish state somewhere else, where they are actually supported like Europe or USA I would actually vote pro. Them being in the Middle East just created issues for the region. The ultimate Helen of Troy. But I think that was the purpose why it was chosen there by the Western powers in the first place, to destabilize the region. Biden said so himself. Sad.

At this point Israel has lost all its empathy in my eyes. They have become what they sought never to be repeated again in the world. Really sad.

The issue is not regarding Arabs living in Tel Aviv. The issue is Palestinians living in the West Bank under a brutal occupation. And there are millions of them.

They basically provoked it with their inhumane racist policies. I do not support what Hamas did but it is understandable. Intentionally bombing civilians when you can choose not to is basically the same. IDF confirmed that they do not care about civilian casualties with the statement that you keep ignoring. I will send you the link if you do not believe me . Israeli Army Official Admits Gaza Bombing Campaign Is Focused on 'Damage and Not on Accuracy' (commondreams.org) Israel’s use of disproportionate force is a long-established tactic – with a clear aim | Paul Rogers | The Guardian Now tell me, how is this better than what Hamas did? I really want to understand. Both sides are intentionally killing civilians. The only way to change that is by treating Palestinians better. No other solution will work. Dont you think if Israel treated them humanely, ended the prison, Hamas would find it harder to recruit soldiers and brainwash kids? It is very easy to brainwash kids when they have family members killed by IDF and living in an open air prison. The only true way to stop Hamas from existing is to make the people there feel like Israel is not treating them unfairly. As long as that is the overall feeling then Hamas will appear again rebranded. Palestine getting their own state and the blockade in Gaza ending, illegal settlement stopped in West Bank would all be a good first step towards that.

Again scale matters. It is not "from time to time", there are endless number of childreen and women in Israel jails often jailed for ridicioulus reasons and receive high sentences. I heard kids sentenced for decades. I read reports from international organizations where the childreen were kept in cages during the freezing cold. They were trialed in After death they are kept in refrigerators until their sentence is completed. Also sometimes their organs and skin get harvested without consent from them or their families. The judges sometimes did not even look at them while giving the sentence. How can a "first world democracy" treat people like this? It is beyond reason. You think this shit would fly in countries like France, Sweden, Spain? Israel is the ONLY country in the world that trials children's in military courts. ONLY. Think about that...

That I do agree was a mistake by the Arabs although I do not know whether the UN deal was fair or not. Regardless, why did Israel commit the Nakba after it won the war? How is killing 20.000 civilians, destroying hundreds of villages and kicking out 750.000 people and taking tons of territory justified? Sure you won the war which maybe should not have happened. Why do all that stuff after? Why not just force them to surrender?

I think 400 or so killed were soldiers. That is why I called it a war crime, because civilians also got killed in mass. Keep in mind in Israel military service is mandatory for both genders so everyone over 18 has served in the IDF. It does not justify killing ex soldiers off duty but it is understandable why they would kill them with such hatred. How would you feel if you were a Jew and got your hands on ex Nazi soldiers? Killing children's is totally unjustifiable and horrible though. If I could I would see the organizers of those killings and the actual soldiers that commited them either dead or life in some shit prison. Also I think they overblow the amount of people dying in such horrible ways (although not the way how they died). What you said may be true but scale matters a lot. And if you want to talk about suffering, you know dozens of childreen are having their limbs amputated without anasthetisa because of Israel ruthless bombing and lack of supplies going to hospitals? You think having your arm cut out is any more humane than the stuff you wrote above? You know that when one of the hospitals in Gaza had to evacuate the IDF did not allow the premature babies in incubators to leave and when the doctors returned during the ceasefire they found them rotting, long dead from starvation. How are these scenes any better than what happened during October the 7th? 2 babies are confirmed to be killed in total and I think 40 childreen in total so far. Although horrible, compare it with 7000 Palestinians childreen dead. You are claiming as if babies were killed in the hundreds which is not true. Yes, I sent a clip of a building attacked where only 1 floor was destroyed. Apply that as the norm. I love how you keep ignoring the IDF people legit saying "WE ARE AIMING FOR DESTRUCTION, NOT ACCURACY". How can you say "there is no better solution"? Come on... Occupation and colonizing are different things. Colonizing is when you kick out the native population and settle your own people. You did not have millions of Italians get kicked out. The same people lived in the same territory with different governments. Colonizing used to be morally acceptable in the past, just like what Hamas did was. You think what Hamas did is special? It used to be textbook war practice applied by every country for most of human history. However it is not anymore in 2023 which is why people rightfully denounce it. Neither is what Israel did and is doing now with taking more and more Palestinian territory. If you claim that Israel should not be denounced since every country did something similar to what Israel is doing/did , then by that logic also Hamas should not be denounced because also every country did similar stuff to what Hamas did. Apartheid regime which Israel has is also not acceptable anymore in a first world country although it was in the past (example USA before civil rights movement).

Palestine has also right to defend itself. What Hamas did is not even 1/10 of the collective trauma Palestine has suffered under Israel. How come a war crime is only "horrible" when Hamas does it. It may be so bad to you because you are from there, I get it. However if you want to be objective such massacres are very common in wars. I honestly do not know why Israel expects the rest of us to care more about this specific massacre? Russia also did a similar massacre in Bucha against Ukraine. So did Israel with carpet bombing refugee camps. 600 or something civilian's dead, mostly adults compared to 7000 childreen dead so far. Why should we care more about those 600? Especially considering the enormous amount of lies about the massacre like 40 beheaded babies? And if you want to talk hostages, Israel has thousands of childreen and women in prisons which has arbritary arrested and imprisoned under inhumane conditions for things as silly as throwing stones at soldiers. Again, when 200 Israelis get taken hostage you loose your shit when Israel has taken 20x more through the years in West Bank. I expect Israel to react like this because it is their people and I do not blame them but why should the rest of us care more about you, especially considering you are the aggressors in the first place. And yes this started decades ago. It is an ongoing thing. What you are doing is like taking the bombing of Dresden which was indeed a terrible war crime and saying "Germany is the victim poor them", ignoring all the massacres and aggression they started in the first place. In the eyes of most of the world Israel started this by colonizing the native population living there. If they knew their place and stayed within the UN borders this would be a different situation. How come Palestinians are pushed all the way to Gaza? You realize most of its population are refugees created by Israel. And Israel is the victim? The current border of Israel is way bigger than the UN agreed border of 1947. ALL of that land difference is pure theft. Einstein, a Jew, was wise enough to understand why this was a bad idea. I know this cannot be realistically undone anymore but at least stop acting like the victims when the chickens come home to roast. When the Russians were murdering and raping German civilians in Berlin the world did not see Germany as the victims. Neither were the Japanese seen as the victims when Hiroshima was nuked. The world not seeing Israel as the victim here either, is proof of what I am saying.