Karmadhi

The more I think about this, the more I believe that it is not realistic for Israel to be super clean and respectful towards civilians when they were attacked by Hamas. The only solution to me, is for other powerful countries, including USA, Russia etc to basically force Israel into obeying international law. If someone murdered my friend, I would rush towards to kill them, it is not realistic for others to tell me, "get over it bro". But it is very realistic for others to stop me and hold me from doing so when I rush to kill him for murdering my friend. The same logic applies for Hamas ofc. Therefore, forcing Israel into obedience is the most realistic solution. The hurt person will not object to restraint, it is not realistic. However, I still think Israel has gone too far at this point. Killing 20x is overkill, but being totally clean is a bit not realistic. @Nivsch

No I mean many European countries did not want to take the Jews that the Nazis kicked. Why so? I am not saying that Jews were bad, I am saying exactly that the argument "why dont these people take these guys" does not mean anything. Just like Jews were not bad and still Europe did not take them, Palestinians are not bad and Arabs do not take them. And unlike Jews in Europe back then, Palestinians have indeed their own land and state so no reason for them to leave on the first place. I live in the West and I do not recall the government here to sterlize black women without their consent so they will not reproduce, the same way Israel did for Ethiopian Jews. Western values my ass... Israel gave birth control to Ethiopian Jews without their consent | The Independent | The Independent Forced contraception of Jewish Ethopian women is tip of global iceberg | Lisa Hallgarten | The Guardian Some links from Western Media in case you do not believe me.

Israelis use the "Why dont Arabs take them, if they do not take them, it means they do not want them so they are bad" type of argument. Let me ask you this, why did Europeans kick out the Jews from Europe in the 1930s? Why they did not take them when they fled Germany? You do realize the Nazis used exactly the same arguments to justify their brutal policies, "Look these European countries do not want Jews either, therefore look how bad they are". How would you respond to this argument?

Guys, any idea when the verdict will be?

When will the verdict come? Anyone knows?

Not really. They are far more brutal. They have dropped 2000 paund bombs in residential areas. The USA even against ISIS never did more than 500 paunds in residential areas saying that more than that would be illegal. To add insult to injury's, the 2000 paund bomb was done in an area Israeli claimed "was safe for civilians to go to". NYC did a report on this. I sent it here I think. I would say they are relative to Russia in brutality. Russia bombing of Syria was similar in terms of tactics and Russia got a ton of shit for it. Why do you say Palestinian terror makes Israeli dehumanize them? Why not say, Israeli illegal expansion of settlements and their brutal tactics of warfare cause Palestinians to hate them so much, they resort to all sorts of terrorist attacks. The sword cuts both ways. Illegally settling in territories in West Bank seems pretty provocation to me. Benjamin showing a map of Greater Israel in International meetings where you could not find neither the Gaza nor West Bank in it seems also provocation to me. Bombing Hamas people in Lebanon is also technically provocation and illegal. I think the guy deserved to be bombed but it is a breach of sovereignty. I am curious how Israel would react if Turkey for example bombed some Guleyn terrorists in Tel Aviv and killed 4 Israeli innocent civilians while doing so.

To be honest, Israel to me seems a mix between blue and orange with an extremely toxic blue government and army. Little Green in it since they do allow LGBT and stuff but not much. I heard they are also somewhat racist towards darker skin Jews (like the Ethiopian sterilizing thingy) and Palestinian Arabs. The settlers are definetly blue religious' fanatics since they use their holy books to justify devilry, classic stuff. Just because a country is above red does not mean they are not capable of genocide, ethnic cleansing and horrible war crimes. Ethnic cleansing, which Israel is defiantly doing (I literally sent sources of what their ministers want) is a blue activity. Bombing of civilians can happen both in Blue and Orange. I am still unsure whether there is genocide happening in Gaza right now, but definately genocidal actions have been happening like collective punishment. Red is characterized by "barbaric" type of violence. For example cutting heads, burning people alive etc. I have not seen many reports from the IDF doing such stuff. It is usually either shooting people or bombing them. Red would be Mongolian hordes or Japan in Asia (Rape of Nanking etc). Blue would be Nazi Germany and to some extent the USSR. However I feel like Israel has a deep rooted blue component since its foundation. Being accused of stealing land by all its neighboors and fighting wars for decades while being called a theft has caused them as a society to fundamentally see Palestinians as lesser. Otherwise the guilt would be too big and they would crumble as a country. This view of Palestinians as "uncivilized beasts" is how blue sees red (leo made a video about this). If Israel was truly green, it would feel sorry for Palestinians, see them as victims. That is how Green sees Red. As victims, sometimes a bit too naively. This is how I see them (I consider myself mostly Green with some orange) and that causes me to side with them hardcore on this war. Although I would not put all Palestinians as red. I think Hamas is definately a hardcore toxic Red and maybe some people in Gaza that support Hamas fully are red but I think most of them have a lot of blue in them. Especially the ones in the West Bank I would put mostly blue. We have a clash of two blue societies and that causes so much hatred. Blue against blue is the worst combination when it comes to solving conflicts. Two mules. @Nivsch Would like also your output on this text since I wrote a lot.

There is 1 thing that disturbs me. If Israeli people support the murder of Palestinian civilians in Gaza because "they attacked and killed us", then by that same logic, it is acceptable for people in Gaza to support Hamas murder of Israeli civilians because "they took our land, kicked us out and killed us". Fundamentally Israelis, many of them see that people in Gaza support Hamas and therefore in their mind it is ok for their civilians to be killed. But the same logic can also be applied to Palestinians. Since most Israelis support Zionism and their government under Benjamin, is it acceptable for them for civilians to be killed too? So where does this end?

Ben Gvir: War an opportunity to encourage migration from Gaza | The Times of Israel Israeli Politician Wants Gaza Bombed Like Dresden in WWII - The New American- The guy with glasses, sent a video here where he was recorded in tv saying it. Who is Ayelet Shaked, Israel’s new justice minister? | The Times of Israel Some of Israeli politicans. Now tell me what should I make of this? I have never heard people in the West use this kind of language ever. Maybe Israel has some green people but majority are not. Otherwise these statements would not fly. Green people would never allow such politicans to be elected and to say such stuff. They loose their shit about way way softer statements. This is overkill for them. When I see 24.000 Palestinians, mostly childreen and women dead, then i see such statements from Israeli officials. You expect me to like them?

Stage Blue is also capable of great evil also. Genocide is pinnacle stage blue. And unfortunately Israel government has tons of Stage Blue people in it like Ben Gavir with company. Stage Orange is also easily capable of war crimes, maybe not downright genocide but still atrocities. The rest of Israel government is stage orange probably. And here we are. A dominating green government in Israel would help the situation a ton. I am sure there are green citizens in Israel that can go in office.

You need to understand that what is a "terrorist" is relative. To you Houthis are terrorists and USA is helping against terrorism. To others USA and Israel are terrorists and the Houthis are helping against terrorism. As a fan of Leo's work (since you are on this forum) , I am sure you can comprehend this.

Hamas did not start anything. It was ongoing conflict for decades. Israel killed historically dozens times more people than Hamas did. Just because Israel got attacked once brutally when it did brutally attack others dozens of times. It is basically like the Nazis crying for Dresden when they inflicted way more pain on others during the war. When you say "Hamas started this war", you are implying that things were peaceful there and they were not. Hamas has the collective trauma of Palestinians which makes them act like they do and think like they do. Israelis have little collective trauma inflicted by Palestinians. Dont take our your historical anger about Nazis raping and killing Jews on Palestinians.

You are delusional if you think they have a pro Palestinian agenda. Why would they have an agenda for people that are poor, have no power, no support, no nothing? What do they gain from it? Think.

Israeli bombs kill more civilians in Gaza per day than Hamas has captives in Palestine. Why you make such a big deal about them? 100 is way smaller number than 20.000.

@Nivsch Tell me, how do you justify this? I searched and 926 civilians killed from Palestine and 3 civilians killed from Israel. Total killed in Palestine 1166 to 1417 and 13 in Israel (including 4 soldiers death by enemy fire). How does your peace lover Israeli IDF justify this barbarity? Picking the exact time childreen are on the streets to beging bombing is one of the most diabolical things I have ever heard. And they dare call Hamas evil. They are as inhumane.

The issue is decades of occupacion and atrocities. If you look at the situation in 2023, you can say that a lot of the measures are necessary, fair. However, the reason they are necessary is because of deep resentment that comes from people that have been oppressed all their lives. It is an endless cycle of violence and hatred. I have never seen in the world such hatred between two groups of people. Someone needs to step up, swallow their pride/ego and put an end to the hate, even if it costs them a bit. Same way Mandela did. Since Israel is a lot richer, more developed and has more educated people it has the moral obligation in my opinion to do so. With great power and knowledge comes great responsability. The current Israeli government is the worst government possible to do so. Leo also said that Israel has been doing lowkey ethnic cleansing for 50 years now. Unless you recognize this, put a stop on it instead of funding further illegal settlements and calling for Gaza to be ethnically cleansed, there will be no more change and Palestinians will still try to do terrorist attacks on you.

That war comes from oppression and desire for ethnic cleansing. Israel treats them like shit, so they should not cry about being attacked. Here is a solution for you: Go back to 1947 borders and give them 50% of the land. Lets see if Israel wants to do that. Doing that would decrease terrorism by a ton. Also do war crime trials for anyone that has broken international law. Give Palestinians equal rights rather than random soldiers raiding their houses at 3am without any warrant or shooting kids via snipers. Do all of these and I assure you terrorism will be greatly reduced. But ofc they wont do that because fundamentally Isarel are also selfish devils.

@Lila9 This is proof that brutally crushing resistance and treating Palestinians as lesser and cleansing them does not work. You take out Hamas in Gaza, another gets created in West Bank. I had a conversation with some friends, they said West Bank should fight like Hamas did in Gaza because eventually Israel wants to kick them all out and treat them like subhuman trash. Better die fighting. This is the sentiment people have about Israel which motivates them to do stuff like you wrote. Something fundamental needs to change, giving Palestinians right and some of their land back. Otherwise you take out 1 head, 2 others replace it. Forever and ever. Endless cycle of violence.

Look there is 1 factor you need to consider. When the attacks first happened and people found out, nobody knew that civilians were targeted in mass and villages massacred etc. Personally when I saw it, I thought they had broken the wall and went after Israeli soldiers and military outposts. And to be honest It felt like karma to me. I was happy for them (although I knew the hell that would be unleashed on them as a response) I have huge disgust with the IDF, especially its commanders and the current Israeli government. I genuinely think many of them belong in the Hague jails for war crimes commited throughout decades. However when I saw the news about the civilian killings, about burning childreen alive etc, I changed my mind and felt ashamed for being happy about it earlier. I simply did not know. Maybe those in Gaza when they celebrated thought that people broke in, not that civilians were massacred. A

Timeline of Israel-Palestine fatalities 2008-2023 - 2023 Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia 6400 Palestinians killed compared to 300 Israelis since 2008. If you call 300 dead torture imagine what Palestinians must feel like. Numbers are the fundamental proof about who is butchering who here.

If your child was put in a cage and trialed at a military court for throwing rocks at a soldier and random soldiers came as they pleased by breaking the door searching without a warrant you would feel oppressed. Also forgot countless checkpoints just to move around your country and not being hit by snipers without warning. Saying there is no oppression of Palestinians when there have been countless reports from many international organizations is pure delusion. Talk with some Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza about their daily life and you will see for yourself. Easy to say there is no oppression from your comfortable first world country in Israel or wherever you live without a worry in the world.

I think the civilian death toll could have been way lower than it is, Ukraine being an example of urban fighting with lower civilian death toll. I was neutral at start but when I did research on how inhumanely Israel has treated Palestinians in decades and saw their ridicioulous lies about how mass murdering kids is ok that I became heavy Pro Palestine. Countless kids maimed or dead in social media did not help either.

Do not bomb hospitals, schools, areas that you told people to evacuate in the first place, no 2000 paund bombs, no dumb bombs, give more times to civilians to flee, entering tunnels when feasible, do not block aid from UN in the border, do not cut fuel, water electricity, no ridicioulous 50 civilians for 1 terrorist being acceptable etc. These would have been a good start.

Well a 165/1 child death ratio between Israel and Gaza does not help on making people neutral and not 1 sided

Why is the civilian death toll in Ukraine spanning dozens of tows, cities etc not even half of Gaza's? Ukraine population is like 20 times larger too. There are ways to do war with less civilians. And Russians are not angels either.