Karmadhi

I saw some of your first comments and you seem bias on the Israeli position so I doubt you are above this. You are quick to criticize Hamas devilry but you do not criticize Israel devilry much. Ignoring that decade long Israeli policies that went against International laws are the main reason Hamas is in power and the attack happened. Unless you are willing to admit this much, you cannot call yourself truly objective.

On Israel (actualized.org) A video Leo posted on the blog about this conflict

West situation is interesting. They are basically slowly evolving to Green and going towards Green creates loss of some elements which can be seen as very important to Orange and especially Blue. Loss of ethnic dominance from immigration, loss of religion (Rise of atheism), loss of family unit and the whole LGBT stuff screams anti Blue. So for Blue people West is going to shit. However, it also removes some of the healthy factors of blue like low divorce rate, high birth rates (young people are needed to work) and also the whole green environment thing can damage the economic growth. So basically the West is loosing some of the benefits Blue gave it in exchange of Green benefits (more tolerance, more liberal, less inequality in economy and especially more care towards minorities). We are fortunate to live in a very interesting moment in history. The clash between blue and orange versus green. I think all these wars, both internal cultural wars within countries and wars between countries are fundamentally linked with this. For example Iran involvement is blue trying to spread its influence, same with Russia war in Ukraine. All the wars USA does in the Middle East is orange trying to maximize economic interests. Also the Israeli current atrocities are fundamentally Blue based (their cabinet is mostly blue at the moment) against a very ruthelss Red Hamas.

I mean you have different types of "East". In countries like Japan, South Korea and to some extent India you have relative freedom and stuff. But the "East" which @Heaven said like Russia, China, Iran, North Korea you are more restricted. Also restriction is not the same. So North Korea is MUCH MUCH more restrictive than Russia for example. Russia is not that bad if you do not talk against Putin from what I have been told from people living there. Meanwhile North Korea you go to a concentration camp for 3 generations about the most mundane things. Iran is also super restrictive. So it depends. But overall I would say West is more free. Also economy is a huge factor here. Western countries are far wealthier. @Heaven Firstly I am sorry to hear about your loss and your situation. I was not aware of it. If you would like to comment on my answer to your question I would love to hear your ouput.

Sure, I will do my best. First, you need to disginguish between Internal and Foreign Policy. Internal policy is basically how you treat your own citizens, so people that live in your country. This also includes minorities and even migrants. When it comes to internal policy, Western countries are far better than countries like China, Russia, North Korea and Iran. There is no comparison. Which is why most people want to live in the West (on top of having good economies of course). A gray area would be the rich gulf countries which lack freedom but are rich. Plenty of people go to live there too. But overall, we can agree that Western countries tend to have superior internal policies and treatment of their own citizens and residents (non citizens than live there). However, there is also foreign policy. Foreign policy is basically how you treat other countries and how you relate to them. When it comes to foreign policy, this is where Myself and many liberals start to have major issues with Western countries. This is because in the last 3 decades or so, most wars have been started by Western countries to advance Western interests. This is mostly USA but also France in the case with Libya (Sarkozi had illegal funding from Gaddafi). So, as pro peace people as liberals are, imagine seeing most of the wars started in the world being started by your beloved Western countries. As corrupt as North Korea is, they never invaded anyone. China has not invaded other countries either. Neither has Iran. Russia would be the exception and it is only Ukraine and Syrian involvement. Meanwhile look at USA track record for example: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria involvement, Funding Israeli without any care about their war crimes and also being involved in regime topplins all over the world. As I wrote in an above post, regime toplins often make the country worse since dictators are there for a reason. They maintain order amongst a split society, without them you have anarchy or terrorism. So now, since liberals we like peace, we are totally disgusted by this war mongering foreign policy, want it to stop and criticize the West 24/7. Western hypocrisy and double standars are also a major issue for us liberals that live in the West. i have talked with countless friends of mine from the West (Western Europeans) and they are all disgusted by the double standards. A prime example is when Putin denies water, electricity, fuel of Ukranians in Mauripol it is a horrible war crime and totally unacceptable (as it should be). However, when Israel does it in Gaza (a city with 6x the population of Mauripol and far far far more childreen), then nobody says anything. The only time the EU criticized a hospital strike in the war was when Israel denied doing it and it was unclear who did it. I am talking about the one where 300 to 500 died and everyone pointed fingers at each other. Meanwhile when Israel blows up 100 civilians to kill 1 Hamas in a refugee camp, nobody says anything. But when Putin bombes and kills 10 civilians in Ukraine, it is a war crime and Putin is the anti christ. So it is not that we do not find Western values good, or not like to live in the West. It is not a value issue. It is the war mongering and highly intrusive foreign policy that we are so critical about. You will never see people shitting on countries like Norway or Denmark for example. Because their foreign policy minds their own business and they tend to be quite objective actors. Norway for example has been super harsh about Israeli war crimes in Gaza. UK/France not much, USA not at all. And lastly, since you seem to be from Israel, as democratic as Israel may be, the way they treat Palestinians in the West Bank is anything but that. Random police raids without warrants at 2am terrorizing families, total surveillance, illegal settlements, countless highly unecessary shootings of people with snipers, arresting kids for throwing rocks and putting them in cages (yes I have an article about this) etc. Personally I would rather live in Russia or China 100 times over living as a Palestinian in the West Bank (where there is no Hamas in power btw), treatment created by Israel. There is no denying that Israeli itself is a pretty good place to live and treats Arabs there relatively well. Some call it apartheid but I am not informed enough to say that. I saw a very disturbing article where basically Israel illegally gave stuff to Ethiopian Jews not to reproduce anymore which is clear racism. So, there might be certain racist elements in Israel but I do not know. However, their foreign policy, so the way they treat Palestinians in the West Bank and Lebanon provocations are quite problematic.

Neither does the current right wing Zionist regime of Israel unfortunately. So it goes both ways

I did the "hard work" of admitting parts of Gazans support Hamas. Meanwhile you clearly are refusing to do any "hard work" to admit that Israeli policies are also responsible for this whole mess we are in at the moment. Leo and countless others here have pointed to that. Pro Israelis just blame anyone else but themselves. Yes they need their own state just like Israeli does. Why Israel should have a state and Palestine not? Your bias is immense...

@LSD-Rumi But the root of the issue in my opinion is the absolutely criminal way the whole region was split by France and UK, creating "countries" with a bunch of groups that hated each-other. Then dictators are basically force to rise to maintain order. Iraq and Libya are prime examples of this. Iraq is not a nation its 3 different groups forced together into 1 country. And often the groups do not even like each other. To have a democracy and healthy country, you first need a nation. Those countries are not nations. Hence dictatorships are the only solution from total chaos and anarchy and civil war. Re-read this because it clearly flew over your head. Blaming Iran is a easy scapegoat, how exactly is Iran s fault that Libya or Syria is a mess?

USA I think is even more responsible. They basically created and funded the Talibans, creating the whole Afghani mess. They helped the rebels in Syria, creating another mess there. They invaded Iraq which lead to ISIS alongside other issues. They attacked Libya, and now the country is a mess. Lastly, they influenced the Arab Spring causing countries like Egypt and Tunisia to basically stagnate. They fund Israel even when they do genocide, creating issues with Lebanon, Palestine, Yemen etc. They support Saudi Arabia and are influenced with Yemeni war. Now tell me, who caused more issues here? But the root of the issue in my opinion is the absolutely criminal way the whole region was split by France and UK, creating "countries" with a bunch of groups that hated each-other. Then dictators are basically force to rise to maintain order. Iraq and Libya are prime examples of this. Iraq is not a nation its 3 different groups forced together into 1 country. And often the groups do not even like each other. To have a democracy and healthy country, you first need a nation. Those countries are not nations. Hence dictatorships are the only solution from total chaos and anarchy and civil war. UK/France and later US are the fundamental reason why the whole area is a total mess. I am not saying Iran is not responsible for any bullshit there, they clearly are. But relative to the other 3, they caused far less issues historically. Finally, please stop using the word "evil" for countries.

I have the same thought, it is like an archipelago. Ideally they should be returned to Palestine and make a long continuous line. I mean they are illegal from what I could understand so why keep them?

Well the whole area around Gaza is illegally occupied by Israel since 1948. The UN border of Israel and Palestine does not include those areas that Hamas attacked as Israel land. So by default the people there feel like those specific areas are stolen land. Also, who put people in Gaza and blocked them? Not allowing even an airport, controling water/electricity and fuel? Who killed just in 2014 close to 2000 civilians, 500 childreen while Israel faced close to 0 civilian casuaties. Israel first put those people in a big prison after kicking them from their homes. Secondly, every few years it carpet bombs it killing thousands of civilians and lastly it denies them any sort of human rights or rights of indepedent state. These are the policies I talk about So when those people rebel and come to wipe you out, do not insert the surprised picachu face. Those Hamas terrorists are the people that lost loved ones because of Israeli carpet bombing. Perhaps not killing their relatives would have not given them the hatred necessary to butcher them on October 7th. Hatred and terrorism happen as a result of bad policies, they do not appear out of thin air. You need to understand this before just calling people "evil". I do not know why it is so hard for you Pro Israelis to comprehend that grave historical injustices can cause people to lash out and do horrible things . It is not a coincidence. Beat up someone enough and he will loose his humanity. And this is just Gaza, West Bank has its own long list of abuses which I do not want to start writing here for length reasons.

I am not saying there is NO damage in Israel at all, but it is a drop in the ocean compared to Gaza. How many buildings were damaged or destroyed? In Gaza it is close to 150.000 so far. Tell me Israeli ones?

Which ones? Israel admitted 800 civilians dead and 400 soliders. Google it yourself. Lol because Israel has barely any material damage, barely anyone lost their home. Lol when your whole city gets razed to the ground. Shamless... "My rights end where your begin" is a famous quote. Trying to save 100 people by murdering 25.000 is not the answer. Also, I am sure Hamas would let those hostages go if Israel gave e permanent ceasefire. Israel cares about destroying Hamas more than about saving the hostages. Also, do not ignore my previous thread. I will paste it here to make it easy for you. My response to the statement: "Israel did not choose to start this war". "They did not actively start it but decades of bad policy and constant abuse of Palestinian people caused it. Unless you admit Israeli decade long policies are one of the main causes for the attack, then you are not seeing the full picture. I feel sorry for the civilians that got killed but the Israeli state has part of the responsibility. If you keep kicking someone, do not be surprised when he eventually lashes out at you uncontrollably . Hamas is also to blame for choosing the wrong way of helping the Palestinian cause. I dislike that Israeli pro people never admit their policies are a big factor that lead to this attack". Since I agreed that Palestinians civilians, a part of them do indeed support Hamas and totally hate Israel to the point of wanting to kill civilians, you can at least admit that Israel is partly reponsible for the attacks happening because of their horrible multi decade long oppressive policies towards Palestinians.

1. If you want to use numbers for comparison, more than 20X civilians have died by the IDF than by Hamas. 800 civilians compared to 25.000. And that 25.000 will increase more. 2. I was talking about destruction to a dense urban area. Wiping entire cities out of the map. So Gaza is basically how WW2 destruction was in terms of intensity of destruction of a specific big urban area. I am not saying the whole world got destroyed. It is not rocket science...

They did not actively start it but decades of bad policy and constant abuse of Palestinian people caused it. Unless you admit Israeli decade long policies are one of the main causes for the attack, then you are not seeing the full picture. I feel sorry for the civilians that got killed but the Israeli state has part of the responsibility. If you keep kicking someone, do not be surprised when he eventually lashes out at you uncontrollably . Hamas is also to blame for choosing the wrong way of helping the Palestinian cause. I dislike that Israeli pro people never admit their policies are a big factor that lead to this attack.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68006607 This is WW2 level destruction at this point.

Neither should Israel be rewarded for its devilry. Palestine needs a country more than ever, even most Western Media is saying it including US/UK. Just Israeli right wing are against it.

@Merkabah Star Scary@Merkabah Star

But they are rich and capable of turning a desert into thriving area. Also USA/EU can support them. UAE is desert and still doing great. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine#/media/File:UN_Palestine_Partition_Versions_1947.jpg Does seem quite decent to me, Israel seems bigger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel#/media/File:UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png Dont you think this would be the most fair split? It is the one UN agreed upon in 1947 when Israel was first founded. I am curious about your opinion.

I mean you also justify IDF atrocities so you are not much different. How exactly are you better than him? At least call IDF brutality out if you want to be seen objective. Scale wise IDF is way worse also (in terms of people dying because of each side). Personally I call out both Hamas and IDF atrocities, you seem only to call out Hamas. Fine by me, but do not start calling out people for doing the same thing that you do, just for the other side.

So Israel security takes priority over Palestinian freedom? How unbiased of you... We can easily flip the script on it and say Palestinian state should come even at expense of Isarel security.

This is the second war I watch because social media is a big thing now. I also saw some clips from ukranian war but saw no near the amount of human carnage, dead kids, pieces of arms/legs, shooting civilians etc. It seemed much more of a conventional war between soldiers and destroyed buildings by what I saw. This one seems as a total massacre. So never have I seen such graphic images. The videos and clips I saw are quite legit. They show insane amount of human suffering, especially of childreen which no sane person should endorse. But educate me please about what I am getting all wrong?

To be honest I saw some pretty disturbing footage of Israel brutality in Gaza last few days and I have to say the amount of war crimes Israel is committing in Gaza is absolutely insane for 2024 standards. We should be above this, come on guys. I am quite disappointed how Israeli public is supporting this at large. It looks to me like those Black Mirror episodes where the mob justice is so brutal and ruthless to the point where they have created the same evil that attacked them. I would expect sensible Israelis to try to force the government to lower the violence, not double down on it. I mean at this point they are not becoming much more different from Palestinians that celebrated October 7th attacks. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/right-wing-israeli-ministers-join-thousands-event-calling-countrys-res-rcna135863 This also does not help the situation either for the post war region. And I have said similar things to pro Palestine people that I know in real life, that celebrating the October 7th attack was wrong. It is just that here in this thread, we got nobody that would consider it acceptable for Palestinians to celebrate that attack. Just clarifying it before I get accused for being biased and tolerating Palestinians again...

Good to see we have common ground here. Now my question is, are your views common or uncommon in Israel? Since Israel is a democracy, how come if they are common, the politicians do not do anything about it? Also, how come even before this attack, Israel had the most right wing government like ever? How come people like Ben Gvir got in power? I am asking to understand here, not accusing or anything. Would like some insight information regarding how these people managed to get in power. Because I think Israel does not need such radicals, they only add fuel to the fire.