Karmadhi

Well the whole area around Gaza is illegally occupied by Israel since 1948. The UN border of Israel and Palestine does not include those areas that Hamas attacked as Israel land. So by default the people there feel like those specific areas are stolen land. Also, who put people in Gaza and blocked them? Not allowing even an airport, controling water/electricity and fuel? Who killed just in 2014 close to 2000 civilians, 500 childreen while Israel faced close to 0 civilian casuaties. Israel first put those people in a big prison after kicking them from their homes. Secondly, every few years it carpet bombs it killing thousands of civilians and lastly it denies them any sort of human rights or rights of indepedent state. These are the policies I talk about So when those people rebel and come to wipe you out, do not insert the surprised picachu face. Those Hamas terrorists are the people that lost loved ones because of Israeli carpet bombing. Perhaps not killing their relatives would have not given them the hatred necessary to butcher them on October 7th. Hatred and terrorism happen as a result of bad policies, they do not appear out of thin air. You need to understand this before just calling people "evil". I do not know why it is so hard for you Pro Israelis to comprehend that grave historical injustices can cause people to lash out and do horrible things . It is not a coincidence. Beat up someone enough and he will loose his humanity. And this is just Gaza, West Bank has its own long list of abuses which I do not want to start writing here for length reasons.

I am not saying there is NO damage in Israel at all, but it is a drop in the ocean compared to Gaza. How many buildings were damaged or destroyed? In Gaza it is close to 150.000 so far. Tell me Israeli ones?

Which ones? Israel admitted 800 civilians dead and 400 soliders. Google it yourself. Lol because Israel has barely any material damage, barely anyone lost their home. Lol when your whole city gets razed to the ground. Shamless... "My rights end where your begin" is a famous quote. Trying to save 100 people by murdering 25.000 is not the answer. Also, I am sure Hamas would let those hostages go if Israel gave e permanent ceasefire. Israel cares about destroying Hamas more than about saving the hostages. Also, do not ignore my previous thread. I will paste it here to make it easy for you. My response to the statement: "Israel did not choose to start this war". "They did not actively start it but decades of bad policy and constant abuse of Palestinian people caused it. Unless you admit Israeli decade long policies are one of the main causes for the attack, then you are not seeing the full picture. I feel sorry for the civilians that got killed but the Israeli state has part of the responsibility. If you keep kicking someone, do not be surprised when he eventually lashes out at you uncontrollably . Hamas is also to blame for choosing the wrong way of helping the Palestinian cause. I dislike that Israeli pro people never admit their policies are a big factor that lead to this attack". Since I agreed that Palestinians civilians, a part of them do indeed support Hamas and totally hate Israel to the point of wanting to kill civilians, you can at least admit that Israel is partly reponsible for the attacks happening because of their horrible multi decade long oppressive policies towards Palestinians.

1. If you want to use numbers for comparison, more than 20X civilians have died by the IDF than by Hamas. 800 civilians compared to 25.000. And that 25.000 will increase more. 2. I was talking about destruction to a dense urban area. Wiping entire cities out of the map. So Gaza is basically how WW2 destruction was in terms of intensity of destruction of a specific big urban area. I am not saying the whole world got destroyed. It is not rocket science...

They did not actively start it but decades of bad policy and constant abuse of Palestinian people caused it. Unless you admit Israeli decade long policies are one of the main causes for the attack, then you are not seeing the full picture. I feel sorry for the civilians that got killed but the Israeli state has part of the responsibility. If you keep kicking someone, do not be surprised when he eventually lashes out at you uncontrollably . Hamas is also to blame for choosing the wrong way of helping the Palestinian cause. I dislike that Israeli pro people never admit their policies are a big factor that lead to this attack.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68006607 This is WW2 level destruction at this point.

Neither should Israel be rewarded for its devilry. Palestine needs a country more than ever, even most Western Media is saying it including US/UK. Just Israeli right wing are against it.

@Merkabah Star Scary@Merkabah Star

But they are rich and capable of turning a desert into thriving area. Also USA/EU can support them. UAE is desert and still doing great. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine#/media/File:UN_Palestine_Partition_Versions_1947.jpg Does seem quite decent to me, Israel seems bigger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel#/media/File:UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png Dont you think this would be the most fair split? It is the one UN agreed upon in 1947 when Israel was first founded. I am curious about your opinion.

I mean you also justify IDF atrocities so you are not much different. How exactly are you better than him? At least call IDF brutality out if you want to be seen objective. Scale wise IDF is way worse also (in terms of people dying because of each side). Personally I call out both Hamas and IDF atrocities, you seem only to call out Hamas. Fine by me, but do not start calling out people for doing the same thing that you do, just for the other side.

So Israel security takes priority over Palestinian freedom? How unbiased of you... We can easily flip the script on it and say Palestinian state should come even at expense of Isarel security.

This is the second war I watch because social media is a big thing now. I also saw some clips from ukranian war but saw no near the amount of human carnage, dead kids, pieces of arms/legs, shooting civilians etc. It seemed much more of a conventional war between soldiers and destroyed buildings by what I saw. This one seems as a total massacre. So never have I seen such graphic images. The videos and clips I saw are quite legit. They show insane amount of human suffering, especially of childreen which no sane person should endorse. But educate me please about what I am getting all wrong?

To be honest I saw some pretty disturbing footage of Israel brutality in Gaza last few days and I have to say the amount of war crimes Israel is committing in Gaza is absolutely insane for 2024 standards. We should be above this, come on guys. I am quite disappointed how Israeli public is supporting this at large. It looks to me like those Black Mirror episodes where the mob justice is so brutal and ruthless to the point where they have created the same evil that attacked them. I would expect sensible Israelis to try to force the government to lower the violence, not double down on it. I mean at this point they are not becoming much more different from Palestinians that celebrated October 7th attacks. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/right-wing-israeli-ministers-join-thousands-event-calling-countrys-res-rcna135863 This also does not help the situation either for the post war region. And I have said similar things to pro Palestine people that I know in real life, that celebrating the October 7th attack was wrong. It is just that here in this thread, we got nobody that would consider it acceptable for Palestinians to celebrate that attack. Just clarifying it before I get accused for being biased and tolerating Palestinians again...

Good to see we have common ground here. Now my question is, are your views common or uncommon in Israel? Since Israel is a democracy, how come if they are common, the politicians do not do anything about it? Also, how come even before this attack, Israel had the most right wing government like ever? How come people like Ben Gvir got in power? I am asking to understand here, not accusing or anything. Would like some insight information regarding how these people managed to get in power. Because I think Israel does not need such radicals, they only add fuel to the fire.

Iran definitely adds fuel to the fire but the elephant in the room are Israeli's policies. Palestinians would not be influenced by Iran if they were content with what Israel has been doing. It is just that they found aid in Iran for their cause while the rest of the Muslim world slowly abandoned them. But the creator of that cause are Israeli policies, Iran is just the serviceman that helps Palestine do its attacks. The motivation and desire for the attacks comes from deep resentment over Israel's actions accumulated in decades.

@Nivsch By the way I did a lengthy reply to your post. Can you please reply to it? Would like your opinion.

Well if it is just 28 out of 28.000 it is a crazy small ratio, 1 in 1000. You probably have more rapists and murderers in most countries than 1 in 1000.

From what I have seen Israeli Arabs live quite well and technically better than they would in other countries in the region (except maybe gulf countries). However, I am not sure whether they have full legal rights and political representation, I am talking about Israeli muslims here. But I am not informed a lot so just speculating here. I think you might know this better. Biggest issue I have seen here is that West Bank territories often are islands surrounded by a Israeli sea. It is a very problematic distribution of land because if I want to go from X to Y city in the West Bank I need to go through Israel which means going through military checkpoints, being questioned etc. It is quite frustrating. And I think illegal settlements are a reason why the sea exists in the first place. There was no sea before 1964, most of it comes from illegal stealing of land in the last 40 years or so. Also I have seen that Israelis do random house searches with no warrants at 12 on the evening. Imagine living like that. These policies I do not support. Israel should just have a normal border with West Bank and if they want to go in Israel, sure control them. Every country does. But thats it.

I think it has become quite clear at this point Israel is heavily abusing the Hamas attack to create smokescreen for further advance of their right wing Zionist agendas. Wanting to annex Gaza and taking more of West Bank territory being part of it. If Israel starts settling again in Gaza it would be a disaster for the region and destroy all hopes for peace (if there are any left).

What is the proportion of verified personnel that aided Hamas? The size of that proportion determines whether it is justified or pure bs policy.

25 year old male

What propaganda did I say? i just asked why you said what you said. Now that you gave actual proof I ll reply to it. So regarding Qatar/Turkey I would call affiliated/friendly with terrorist organizations rather than call them themselves terrorist countries. As long as they do not actually aid Hamas militarily or do similar actions themselves I cannot call them such. But that is just my opinion, I can understand that you would call them terrorists for just being friendly with Hamas.

I do not think Qatar, Turkey are terrorist organizations. Where is your proof for that? To me Israel uses same war crime prone tactics in Gaza that Russia uses in Ukraine (cutting electricity, water, fuel, bombing hospitals, bombing evacuation corridors etc, I would say the Russian Siege of Mauripol looked like a mini Gaza when I read about it). So I find it quite hypocritical for people to be critical of Russia while supporting Israel considering the human suffering in both quantity and methodology that they create in warfare is not so different. And to be clear, I do not see Russia as the demon the west sees it. But I heavily disagree with some of their policies, same with Iran, same with China, same with Israel, same with US.

I think a fundamental issue on this whole conflict is the deep sentiment that both sides think that the land that used to be the British Palestinian Mandate belongs to them. Jews think it is their holy land and therefore feel entitled to it, especially the current Israeli government while Palestinians think Israel stole it from them. Unless this is somewhat clarified with the respectable leading authorities from each group, this issue will never be solved. Like how can you make peace when Gazans say "you guys are thieves that stole our land and put us here" when Isarelis say "we kicked out all the Jews from Gaza and let you guys manage Gaza". Like according to Gazans all the areas around Gaza are Palestinian land, stolen from them while Israelis feel like they were super generous to even let Gaza exist without Jews in it. Total fucking mess. Only factual things here is: Hamas stole a lot of money and killed the opposition and focused on military instead of developing itself, Israel did not allow Gaza to have an airport, Gaza is mostly refugees kicked out since 1948, Gaza fires rockets toward Israel super often, Israel kills on average 20x more than get killed, Gaza supports Hamas and would like to see Israeli gone (some as becoming much smaller than it is, some as a political entity aka state, some as all Jews kicked, some as all Jews killed depending on how radical they are). Issue here fundamentally is that each side sees themselves as the victim and the generous one. Good luck solving this, I have given up. I just think this war is disgusting and want it to end asap and everyone involved with war crimes to face justice. I am honestly tired with Israel receiving insane diplomatic immunity from the West and not facing some consequences when they carelessly kill civilians without caring. Hamas did not receive any immunity, it got sanctioned and its leaders are wanted dead. So the consequences for each side's war crimes are not the same in my opinion.