Moksha

Infinity is not just hard for the human mind to understand; it is impossible. I experience infinity in the transcendent dimension, but I don't understand it. Any human experience is unavoidably subjective. We can't experience anything without a brain. When our brain stops functioning, our awareness presumably stops as well. Maybe there is an ultimate awareness outside of the human brain, but if so it is impossible to prove it. Any proof inevitably derives from the brain itself.

Thank you for sharing your experience. Aldous Huxley famously experimented with mescaline over a long period of his life. His early experience, which he described in The Doors of Perception, felt enlightening, but he later decided that it was a dangerous distraction: His spiritual teacher did not approve of these experiments. However, he continued to conduct them and near the end of his life he concluded:

Bingo. This is why conceptual discussions are ultimately recursive. They can be fun, but the only knowledge they reveal is that there is no knowledge. Enlightenment is experiential, not conceptual. Being aware in stillness, without interruptions from the conditioned mind, is beautiful and it is healing. It is the beginning of the end of suffering, and that is all that matters.

@VeganAwake @Adamq8 Yes. Experiencing the Self is wonderful. It feels like infinite, loving, healing, awareness. It is a personal experience, not a conceptualization. I have no idea if it is ultimate reality, or a product of my unconscious mind. It is impossible to know. I feel freedom, am able to tap into deeper intelligence and creativity, and most importantly, I suffer less in my life; that is all that matters to me.

Yes, but only from a relative perspective. There is no ultimate perspective on the surface of the ocean.

According to eastern and western philosophies, the formless preceded the formed. Precedence requires....wait for it....duality. But ultimate reality is timeless and nondualistic. It is a paradox, even if you consider the world of form to be unreal (which I don't; it is real but relative and ephemeral).

@neutralempty Yes, our understanding is limited to the scope of our existence. Nothing that is formed can understand the formless, because the scope of the formed is inherently limited. Ayvatka , the Unmanifest, appears to be infinite. We can't understand it, so it would be foolish to project human characteristics onto it. Even the idea of the Unmanifest "understanding" itself or its creations is nonsensical. Maybe in a way it does, but if so it is beyond our comprehension. The only thing we know about it is that we know nothing. Awakening is the closest we can get to understanding Ayvatka. The experience of awareness, beyond the conditioned mind, is mystical. It feels like being one with the Unmanifest, but that is all that I can say. Whether it really is that, or whether the experience is a projection of the unconscious mind, is impossible to definitively determine.

It's like the Unmanifested is an infinite ocean of consciousness. The waves ebb and flow as the transient focal points of this underlying consciousness. The ocean itself is unified, but the waves are diverse. The waves are part of the ocean, but they are not the ocean. The waves have real, if ephemeral, existence, but they are only the surface manifestation of the ocean that created them.

If you look at the Perennial Philosophy, there is an infinite, changeless reality (unmanifestation) beneath the world of change (manifestation). The ultimate is formless and the relative is form. Form is a creation of the formless, but the formless does not depend on form. Unmanifestation (formlessness) is the uncaused cause. We are human beings. Human = Relative reality. Being = Ultimate reality. So we are a hybrid of Relative and Ultimate reality. Conceptualize: Form a concept or idea of (something). Idea: A concept or mental impression; an opinion or belief. Concepts and ideas are mental representations of our perceptions. Without a mind, they can't exist. Even with a mind, they only exist within the mind. When the mind ceases to exist, so do they. Unless you are Plato, in which case ideas themselves are eternal

@Javfly33It's from the Bhagavad Ghita.

Formlessness always exists; Form is ephemeral. Formlessness is uncaused; Form is caused. Formlessness is undivided; Form is diverse.

@Member Nice Laws exist, but they are hierarchical. Unmanifested Laws > Relative Laws > Deterministic Laws.

Reality is without needing us to understand it. The connection between Transcendent reality and us is that we are created by it and ultimately return to it. Concepts are implicit to the world of name and form, but not to Transcendent reality. Here's one way of describing it, although the description itself is not it:

Anyone. The universe teaches us through suffering. It is how it becomes aware of itself. Maybe there are periods where people don't suffer, but some see those periods as darkness rather than light. We only suffer until we no longer need to suffer.

Concepts are creations of the human mind. Without humanity, there would be no concepts. If ultimate reality is not the human mind, it cannot be conceptual. Transcendent reality is the ultimate mystery. We can try to understand and name it, but any pointers we create are not the mystery itself. We can see the mystery by realizing freedom from the attachments of this world, but even then we cannot name it.

As long as you don't mind your mind, there's no reason to change. Suffering is the ultimate fuel for growth. If you're not suffering right now, why would you seek enlightenment?

There is a difference between the conditioned mind and the unconditioned mind. It is possible to live in the present moment as awareness, free from the conditioned mind. When you do that, the mind becomes a tool. When you don't, you are a tool of the mind. There is an intelligence in ultimate reality that is beyond the human mind. Laws are intelligent and have a purpose. They are deeper than the world of name and form, and they rule this world. They cannot be created or destroyed. This intelligence is the substance of ultimate reality. Now forget all of that, and awaken to freedom from the conditioned mind

Let me think about that Experience can be absolute or relative. Absolute experience is nonconceptual; relative experience is conceptual. Concepts are bound to the world of name and form. The transcendent dimension is nonconceptual. The human mind likes to conceptualize in an effort to navigate life, but it is incapable of conceptualizing ultimate reality. We can only experience reality by awakening to the light that is us, and that awakening is only possible when we release the gravitational pull of the conceptual mind.

A couple of insights that resonate with some of those shared here:

The only thing worse than 95% unconsciousness for a day is 100% unconsciousness for a lifetime Maybe we're not doing so bad after all. From the Bhagavad Gita: It's all about the journey. To answer your question, yes I do find it draining sometimes to maintain presence in my life. Sometimes it's worse than draining; it can actually feel disorienting. I have found it necessary to apply moderation to my spiritual awakening. The Greeks had it right: "Nothing in excess."

The deepest insight is Consciousness becoming aware of itself. This is realized at all levels, from the individual, to the collective, to the cosmic. It is evolution in action.

It sounds like you're on a good path. The key to escaping the mind is to recognize when it is tugging at your awareness, before it pulls you in. At first, you may discover you've been unconscious for several hours before awareness reasserts itself. That's ok. You will eventually catch it in the moment that it is happening, and develop the skill to maintain no-mind even in turbulence. It is strange at first, an altered state of consciousness. I felt my mind fighting against it, a strong momentum to maintain the status quo. I am gradually becoming more astute at recognizing it but staying in stillness, without surrendering to the undercurrent of unconsciousness.

I agree 100%

Even the idea that the world isn't real is still a concept. Dreams and dreamers are concepts. These are pointers, but they aren't the realization itself. Awareness is ultimately a leap of faith. It is letting go of the conditioned mind, even letting go of the pointers, and directly experiencing Source in the Present moment. That primal experience is the beginning of healing, love, and Self-realization.

Yes, at least the only truth that can be known and the only truth with the power to transform the quality of our existence