SamC

@soos_mite_ah Yeah exactly. Being exploited,used, manipulated and dominated in a social setting - which many girls connect with the patriarchy. This is the spiral dynamics green shadow - which hits back on orange, cause a lot of girls have been terrible hurt by men like this. ( not saying there doesn't exists problem with inequality, cause it sure does and it is something society has to find root solutions too.) Or to put it in other words, been objectified and under oppression by narcissistic guys who manipulate them and use them. That's from what I understand one of girl's main problem with pick up and I get it. What is important to pay attention to however is that catch is often used as a metaphor to ATTRACT a girl, not manipulate, oppress, dominate and hurt girls. Some guys will do it of corse, but that doesn't mean all guys see you as prey in that sense. Guys want you, that's why they approach you - than you either reject the guy or get attracted to the guy. There are terrible unconscious ways of pick up, but don't draw the conclusion that prey = dominate and manipulate girls in pick up. It can and is sometimes used that way, but many times It is not. Catch is often = attract and not dominate. Note however, one could argue that the woman is the hunter and that guys are the fish swimming towards you. The asshole guys would in this metaphor be the shark pretending to be a nice high value fish, that thendo what sharks do. Lmao Also become aware that being a creepy/cringy guy can just be a guy who is super needy, insecure and socially awkward, or to put it in the analogy a small baby fish which you girls don't want to catch. I have been cringy and social awkward with girls countless of times, but that doesn't mean I am creep. Just that I in that situation didn't knew how to go about hunting, aka attract the girl and project the things the girl wanted. This is something guys can learn though.. I'll say it again pick up exists so that guys can learn to be less creepy and socially awkward and instead attract girls if it is approached with high consciousness. The Pick up mentality doesn't have to mean to oppress girls

@soos_mite_ah The phrase, "don't ask a fish how to hunt it " is used in pick up because girls don't know what attracts them. The man needs to " hunt" aka attract the girl to get the girl, but hunt doesn't mean that all guys just see you as flesh and bones with a hole. Sure the asshole player that you probably have encountered do - but most guys who get into pick up want to get good with girls, cause they can't even " hunt" aka attract a single girl to save his life. Not all guys are manipulative dominant low conciousness assholes. Listen I of corse get why girls don't like it when that phrase is being used, cause this makes you feel objectified. This because they draw the conclusion that this saying, is encourageing guys to manipulate girl and than use them for sex like that asshoke guy. That's from how I understand it the biggest problem girls see with pickup, and honestly, it is valid in a sense. But remember, the saying don't ask a fish how to hunt it, doesn't have to mean that guys should manipulate you, lie to you and use you for sex - but to attract you. Cause that's basically what all pick up guys want - to attract you. Than some will abuse that power and that's sad, but don't let them take away the meaning of what pick up is. Cause all guys are belive it or not - not psychopathic assholes. Second. You have to appreciate that attracting a girls is hard. It's not a passive act, as it is for girls. If guys want apperience, girls choose personality. See.. You won't sleep with a homeless 42 year old incel who has an half inch of a dick and who lives in his grandma's basement. You just won't.. This guy, would benefit from learning pick up, cause if he wouldn't than you would discriminate against him. " But guys want to find someone who accept them as they are - who will accept them even if he is creepy, socially awkward, uncharismatic and needy" Yet no woman will pick him, no woman will look in the ocean of men and choose to " eat" this fish. That's why pick up was created. Men try to hunt girls, and girls try to gather men. Both objectifie eachother. Why can't you love that guy? That's so discriminating. In fact guys want to be loved as who they are, not only if you can get what you want from them. ( confidence, security ect) another way of looking at it is that- guys have to attract woman, and woman choose which one they want. Both are selfish. Again, Pick up is about learning to attract girls - and without it, you would have a harder to find a valueble man to pluck. Cause there would be less high value men in the ocean, swimming towards you. Girls also like to hunt, but only the big fish

A couple of days ago I got the idea to investigate more into the fears, insecurities and struggles girls face in daiting. Oh God, how shocked I was. Many comments on the youtube videos feuturing how woman can attract men - reminded me of myself. The anger, fear, ego and frustration.. all of it was there. Many angry woman even used the same rationalizations that I used against the girls who have rejected me. That on a structure level though, because the content of what they said was obviously different. To the point - The false and limiting beliefs that was portrayed about men in the comment sections in these videos was many times flat out wrong, biased, skewed and sometimes even borderline crazy. Yet, I still believed in similar ones, but which regarded woman. That being said, it would be werid and irrational to assume that I at the same time am not biased, wrong and carry similar limiting beliefs about girls. Cause this is the perfect mirror if you're angry at girls. ( I mean think about it - it's your problem but from the opposite perspective) My advise is therefor if you're called to do it to look in that mirror! Open up your heart and mind for the fact that some girls feel just as angry and misunderstood as you do. Don't shut down the possibility that the same anger and hoplessness that you're feeling is what is driving woman aswell. Discover what is true for yourself! Be curious about If that's the case or not. Try to understand what their anger is - cause if you can understand that, you're one step closer to understand that exact struggle, but within yourself. And for the real self honest pros out there - go look at the comments on this video down below. Be careful though, cause you might discover something about yourself in the proccess. ... P.s - if anger arises when reading the comments. That's the mirror in action right there. You're on the right track.

I'm curios @Leo Gura Is it possible for woman to understand what attracts them? If not, why is that the case? What's the difference between men and woman here? I mean guys seem to be pretty okey at pin pointing what will make him attract attracted.. why are girls pinpointing so off?

I'm open for it to be the case

@Globalcollective Yeah, one can get into a rabbit hole to escape, mask and distract from the problem. Kinda scary actually

Impossible to cover everything but... Personal strengths Positive psychology Flow Curing Depression/ low self esteem Enhancing self esteem Attachments styles. Parts work Shadow work Self acceptance/ self compassion Awarness work/ meditation Life purpose Habits Socialgy Spiral dynamics Ego development model And 1000 concepts more. Goodluck!

I don't think so, but we will see. It probably is easier than I belive it so though.

LETSS GOO

@Raphael I think that list would get super long. And it also really depends on where you are right now and what is stopping you from experinceing " happiness". What is happiness? What do you want to get to? Do you want to understand everything or only to experience happiness yourself? What is stopping you from experinceing happiness? Answer those, and we'll try to help you (:

@Leo Gura Bingo. That's it! It's litterly reprogramming the subconscious mind and busting limiting beliefs by getting evidence that the limiting belif is false. Wow - I understand why you have planned to realise a course on this topic. This is deep and profound stuff

Lol. I guess only time will tell what will happen to my self esteem. I belive this to be the case aswell but I honestly don't know. Only time will tell I guess.

Maybe. What do you think? @Leo Gura

@Gesundheit You missed my whole point. Where did I say it's easy and that you can think yourself out of low self esteem? I never said that, All I said was that a self image problem is a story about who you are which is not true. I wrote that not because that means that we can affirm ourselves or think ourselves out of there - but to make a point. This may sound super radical, but there is nothing wrong with anyone. The identity of being a person who have low self esteem is false one, yet of corse we are still stuck there. Knowing this in itself will not solve your low self esteem either. It's about what you do with it. Now, What do you think acting on the thought and story " I need to fix myself because I have low self esteem" is based on? Fear or love? Is the answer Fear? Right, fear - cause this thought assumes low self esteem is bad and that you need to become something else in order to be enough. Now look at what low self esteem is. " the self image of not being enough/ unworthy/ unloved as one is" In other words, the real way to WORK on your self esteem, is sometimes to feel, accept and mindfully observe your low self esteem and letting yourself have it and feel the resistance to having it. Scary huh? Cause it is the low self esteem that we are trying to run away from and now all of a sudden, we are tasked to face that fear head on; instead of running away from it. That's my point. That self love and self acceptance heals you - not trying to fix something which isn't broken.

I don't think you appreciate or understood what I said. @Gesundheit Healing can go overboard if you assume that you're broken and take to much action to try to " fix" yourself when you feel like you're not worthy. That approach is in itself a sneaky way to operate from low self esteem, aka fear. In other words the best "exposure therapy", could therefor, not always but sometimes be to accept and feel your low self esteem. That's what I meant by with having to address your low self esteem before - cause if you feel like you have to improve your self esteem in order to get something, you're at the same time telling yourself the same message... "I am not worthy enough, I need to fix myself" But of corse, there is a paradox In order to get to that realization one might need to realize this thourgh raising his conciousness and " raising" the self esteem, til he reaches this endpoint. Where he is enough regardless of what he feels. It's kinda similar to spiral dynamics in a way, when thinking about it. One has to use ego to finally realize the true nature. About the thought anology. This points at the same thing - having low self esteem is just a story, but of corse a story where one is trapped. Of corse one can't get out of it just like that... But that's because of the other storys which says that low self esteem is bad and is the reason for my suffering and inability to in this case get a girlfriend. Again, We are afraid of low self esteem - cause of what it means, so what do you think we try to avoid and fix... Low self esteem. You see what I mean? Anyway - Teal swan covers this very well. Take a look at it if you want!

Feeling everything is okey, including feeling that you don't want to feel it.

I will. Yessir. Thank you!

@Gesundheit Might be the case. Doesn't addressing your low self esteem subcomunicate to yourself that you have low self esteem and therefor can't have an authentic relationship though? I mean what is low self esteem but a bullshit story that exists in your mind?

Love it man. Yeah I agree 100%. When you get high/ healthy self esteem there won't be much struggle in daiting. What do you think happens if one have some self esteem issues but still enough self esteem so that he still can attract some girls? In other words, will experience with girls aid in this process of becoming more comfortable with being who one is? Will getting laid help me to become more authentic? @Gesundheit

@Gesundheit Yeah this is what I've been thinking aswell. Can you expand on how it was for you?

So no self esteem boost when them cheeks were clapping?

Having the skills to get laid/ get a gf

@Striving for more Look at what I wrote about this also. ( in my thread where you repiled)

I understand that you beat yourself up and that you suffer from low self esteem and all that, I do too. it's okey, let those feelings be bro, feel it. But man, remember it is not the thoughts that you are. Your story of being an incel and all what that means is just a story. It is not you.... cause if you were fuck someone tomorrow? What would happen, you'd not be that identity anymore. Like think about it, one fuck and you'd be a totally "different" person... atleast you would think so. In other words, that identity doesn't exsist - other than in your mind. It is only real cause you create a narrative that when you blow your load on a girl, that action will magically change you at your core but than again does that reasoning really have substance? How much can one fuck change you? See it's not about being an incel.. it is what it means!!! Being an incel for you = I am worthless for you. That's the real core to this challenge. And I know.. It doesn't matter when you're entangled In different stories and anxiety, I get that. But realize that A you're not alone and not your thoughts and B that you can experience having sex with a girl if you want even if you don't belive it + accept your feelings as they are. Accept everything. The resistance aswell. Accept that you hate yourself. And than get to work and work on your self esteem and attraction skills. There is a new day tomorrow. Keep your head up man.

It literally is stealing and manipulation so yeah.