Breakingthewall

What is worthless is answering people who aim to appear wise. Good luck with your game son, I hope it fills you with self-esteem. Anyway, it would be nice if you didn't bother those of us who try to talk seriously. I'm sure there are other forums for children where you'll fit in better.

I didn't answer a koan, I know that it's a big work to read all the thread and all of us have bit adhd nowadays, but the answer was to the question of bassui: who's listening the sound? Btw this is a forum to talk, not to contemplate. Everything that is written is an idea, contemplating is in different moment

Anyway I know the answer: the one who hears the sounds is reality, the universe, God. Through life God becomes concious of itself, awakens from it's sleep. Consciousness is the awakening of reality, sleeping reality is as real as awakened reality, but unconscious of itself. Consciousness is the light that illuminates reality, sound is perception, perception is consciousness, the process of awakening goes deeper into itself infinitely, and that sound is part of it. We are the reality awakening, then we could totally awake to it, open our conciousness to the total depth of what it is, that's enlightenment.

Zen masters are bit contradictory, bassui claims have not desire but he desires a lot to scape from the wheel of samsara to scape from suffering, then you should ask yourself obsessively who is who listen the sound, until you realize it. How many people along the history have questioned obsessively "who's listening the sound" and one day they were enlightened? If you are questioning you are in the logical mind and in the lack, you have the need of knowing something, then you should think that you don't know it, then you are making a lot of diferenciations that come from outside with the hope of finding something called "enlightenment" that comes to you from outside, because bassui told you, because bassui told you that if you don't do, you are going to go to the big shit of suffering. At least some doubts about it

If there is not "I" and the mind is void, who's asking that question?

Reality is absolute, infinite. Then, if now it's one state of consciousness, where are the other possible infinite states of consciousness? Out of the conciousness. Means that that they doesn't exist? No, means that they are not manifested now, but could be manifested.... tomorrow? Then doesn't exist not but will exist tomorrow? Of course because any state of consciousness is a facet of the absolute but only some are manifested now, because the manifestation, aka conciousness, is in the time. The absolute is out of the time and it encompass all the possible states of consciousness but they could happen or not, because the absolute is total potential. Total potential implies conciousness, and unconsciousness

You said that there are levels of consciousness, and that's true, then there are levels of what reality is? No, there are levels of what reality is concious of itself. When you talk about alien conciousness you mean a higher level of consciousness, then your actual level of consciousness is limited, same than the level of any human, because as you said we are like rats in level of consciousness in comparison of what is possible. But same time we are the whole reality, but only concious of itself in part. In a higher part that a rat but less than a hiper concious alien. When I said about a retarded being enlightened it's not a retarded being infinitely conciousness, is being concious of the substance, the flow of reality now, but very limited about the depth. I guess that it's possible be fully concious of reality, but not being human. Anyway, all that implies that you are the whole reality now, but partially concious of yourself

Because reality has not limits that prevent it being fully concious of itself, then conciousness arises, but absolute reality is beyond conciousness. But anyway, that discussion is meaningless, anyone can understand it in different ways, what's important is be able to open our field of consciousness to perceive the nature of reality, the flow that we are and the depth that is being manifested to realize that we are that, we are always at home, evolving with the movement of reality in our mind and heart. Seems that there is a evolutive process taking place, then let's evolve as much as is possible

Then you are defining conciousness like something that is beyond conciousness. Conciousness means reality manifested, reality that is conciouss of itself, that perceives itself. If really doesn't perceive itself there is not conciousness.

That's true in the sense of knowing the scope and structure of manifest reality, but a human can be completely open to the essence of reality, to what reality is, even if he is a mentally retarded person who cannot learn to read. What closes perception is the genetic configuration of the mental structure programmed by evolution for survival. Evolution is not interested in mentally retarded people in mystical ecstasy who are open to the essence of reality, but as a possibility it is possible. It is also possible that this mentally retarded person is unable to learn to speak, and still be completely enlightened. Enlightenment is the openess to the immutable that's the source of everything, not the understanding of the manifested reality aka conciousness

Solipsism would mean that you are imagining what you are reading here, it's just a conceptual idea that for me is meaningless, I don't care if you are real or not metaphisically talking, I would say that you are real, but if you aren't, what's the difference? What I want is the total expansion of my mind and the total openess to the absolute About what you said, agree, people confuse conciousness with reality because they think that reality is perception, when perception is just a manifestation of reality

Consciousness is a misleading term that no one explains clearly. Right now I am conscious of myself in a crowded subway stop. I am conscious is a construction within the manifestation of reality now, therefore consciousness would be the manifest reality at a given moment. If reality does not manifest as perception there is no consciousness, but there is still non-conscious reality. You, that is, the perceiver, cannot understand this since for the perceiver perception is absolute since without perception he does not exist, but this is a limited vision that the perceiver has since he cannot conceive of any reality outside of himself.

The problem with these methods is that every mind is different, with profound differences. For me, trying to focus the mind is torture and impossible. True meditation began in a way that seems quite silly, reciting a mantra while walking down the street constantly: nothing means nothing. Little by little I was accepting this fact. It doesn't mean that nothing means anything in general, but that I want to put myself in a state of mind in which meaning is deactivated. When you deactivate meaning, the mind stops creating conceptual thought threads, they fade away naturally. This doesn't mean that you have broken through the mental boundaries completely, but that you have gone down from the superficial conceptual layer, you are outside of it, the mind becomes liquid, fluid, but it is still limited. You can go for quite a long time without any thoughts, because if they don't mean anything, you don't need them to survive. Then you can try something else: you become aware of your sensory perception, of sounds, the sensation of your body, the sensation of the flow of reality. Is this the reality? Or are you the one who perceives these sensations? Are you the witness of the flow that occurs, of perception? So, without this flow, this witness, what is it? If you separate yourself from perception, the perceiver reveals himself as a non-existent point, there is no perceiver without perception, there is absolutely nothing. Is this nothing the final realization? No you have to be able to bear this, because the first time is horrible, it is perceived as death. If you are able to bear the sensations of absolute absence, horror of emptiness, it happens that nothingness reveals itself as the absolute, the absence of limits implies the total, then nothingness opens up and reveals itself as everything. It's like the nothingness opens and it's full. Full of what? Of you. You are that, the absolute

Not bs, just beginner meditation, you have to focus in something because if not you start thinking and conceptualizing, but for me it never worked, it's forced and useless, but just for me

Happiness is the inevitable consequence of real detachment. Real detachment is only possible with openness to the absolute. Happiness is the absence of suffering, suffering is contraction, attachment, desire, living at the superficial level of perception. At this level you can minimize suffering by trying to satisfy your needs, that is, being directed by the evolutionary force and collaborating with it, which is not "bad", but it enslaves you. If you want to be free you have to take a step back, understand what perceived reality is and detach yourself from it as much as possible.

The question is, what conciousness is? Really conciousness is just perception, perception means the fact of perceiving something. You can't imagine anything without perception because "you", the self that arises being an human is made of perception. We are like a software that develops itself integrating the sensorial perception which is given meaning from a structure created by evolution. All this about spirituality is penetrating this whole structure and dismantling it until reaching the final essence. A being made of perception cannot imagine anything that is not perception, because "imagining" is perception. Imagining is a structure of thought created by synaptic connections that integrate the received sensorial perception with the base structure prepared to give it meaning. Getting out of there is not easy, it is impossible to imagine a non-conscious creative force because non-conscious is equated with non-existent by the perceiver, and the perceiver is a creation of the perception. They say: enlightenment is collapsing the duality between perceptor and perception, then only the reality manifested remains. But sometimes lacks here: what is the reality manifested? They will say: pure conciousness. Ah ok, then why it arises? Why it's in the way that it is? Why it's alive, perfectly synchronized? They will say: because conciousness does it. Ah, then conciousness is something that does things....well, seems that conciousness is amplifying it's meaning. Then the final answer: because conciousness is God? What? How? Awake! Idiot! Let me alone 😭 Conciousness is just an arising, just perception, you are without perception. How? Impossible to imagine or perceive, because who imagine or perceive is just the perceptor, the point of a iceberg that is projecting a thin hologram that's a mental construction. That mental construction of course is real, because it's substance is the substance of reality, but means nothing, it's just a relative appearance. The real thing, the absolute, is beyond any conciousness

Exactly, without duality conciousness ceases. You could say: really there is not duality because everything is the same, etc, but anyway the appearance of two is needed. Without consciousness there is cessation, but cessation simply means absence of consciousness, not absence of absolute reality. Awakening, or enlightenment on whatever you want to call knowing your true nature means realizing that the reality beyond perception, nothingness, not the void in which you are aware of the void, but nothingness, meaning nothingness as the absence of any perception, is the living totality, the absolute potential. It is not a logical mental understanding, it is an opening that occurs in you when you transcend precisely the consciousness

Do this mental exercise: imagine that you would be yourself without sensory perception. Then imagine yourself without memory, then without mental movement. What would you be aware of? Absolutely nothing. Your field of perception would be nothing, so there would be no time, but this would be the absolute, the total potential from which infinite manifestations can emerge. This is the absolute, the nothingness that is everything, something outside the possibilities of thought or imagination, you could be open to it but not perceive it because perception, or conciousness, are happenings that happens in that potential Of course conciousness "always" happens, because no conciousness is out of time, then without conciousness it's not happening, but it doesn't mean than conciousness is absolute, it's just an arising, but this arising always happens because when it's not happening is not "when", it's never, but this never is the absolute. Some meditation is needed The human mind needs a concious cause for the cosmos, because an unconscious cause can't be imagined, but this concious cause would be relative. Absolute means total, don't need intention, be aware of itself, just because it's absolute. It is without will or awareness, it's because can't not be, then don't need any conciousness, conciousness just arises, as anything else Real awakening means be open to the absolute in yourself. You are that absolute that can't be thought or imagined, and for "you" is the same be conscious or unconscious. It's just difference of state.

If you focus your awareness in inside, and are able to get free of the chains of your circumstance, you will realize the unlimited, then you would be conscious of the unlimited, but if you don't do that and you are only aware of your pipe of crack, the unlimited alive still exist, because it's absolute, but it's out of the conciousness, the conciousness is nothing, just appearance. The absolute is out of the time, out of the time is out of the conciousness, because conciousness always, absolutely always, implies time. If you are conscious only of the immutability, you are unconscious. Be conscious needs change to be conscious of itself

Maybe Ralston is a beginner in understanding, who knows. Conciousness is a relative concept, means the reality that is manifested. The absolute is beyond the conciousness. Conciousness is the temporary manifestation of a facet of the absolute, the absolute is absolute even it's unconscious of itself, conciousness is the light that shows a part. any part is the absolute, but infinitely out of the conciousness, only a limited part is conciouss of itself, the point of the iceberg, the other infinite iceberg is in darkness. It doesn't need to be inligthened, because it's absolute in the dark and in the light. Awake and anesthesia with propofol are equally absolute. The thing is that unconscious reality is outside of time , it's not "happening", but the point is that "happening" is a relative appearance. Conciousness is a relative appearance.

Reality is unfolding perfectly, your body is doing millions of synchronous processes uninterruptedly, which in turn are synchronized with millions of external processes. There are no coincidences, everything is intertwined, synchronized down to the last subatomic particle. To meditate is to dissolve into this reality, to give up control and to soak in the flowing energy. You are that, the path unfolds, you flow with it. It is mysterious, intricate, beautiful, alive. Like an ecosystem in the jungle, perfect, wild, intelligent.

@Ishanga there is something interesting about sadhguru: he never talk about meditation. Meditation in the sense of the observation of the mind, the structures of the experience and the experienced, the difference between void and full, those things that make the mind plastic, flexible. His approach to enlightenment y mostly physical, energetic. That's right? Shadana doesn't care about the movement in the mind right? Just about the energetic flow

Thanks for sharing what you studied, it's very interesting, but as you said, better don't believe, nor disbelieve. For me it's an idea that have some contradictions

What @PurpleTree says is that this idea about cycles or reincarnation that ends when you achieve "enlightenment" maybe is just a mistake and reality doesn't works like that. @Ishanga why do you believe that? Maybe you achieve moksha and then are more cycles, or maybe reincarnation is a misunderstanding and never happened. Have those ideas without really knowing them seems a hindrance

I think it's evolution, but who knows