DocWatts

Most of this was covered in Leo's Conspiracy Theory video, no need to debunk all of Alex Jone's bat-shit crazy, unfounded ideas point by point here.

@Origins I think the problem isn't so much that he's an excessively unhealthy version of Red ( as far as Red goes, he seems to be pretty par for the course). But more so that Red is a really dysfunctional Stage for a segment of the population to be at in a pluralistic Democracy whose center of gravity is at Orange.

If you yourself spent a significant amount of time in Orange, one thing that might help is to try to think back to how you would frame the issue you're trying to convey in terms that you yourself could have understood when you were at thay stage of development.

I always thought of Trump as an amalgamation of everything bad about America; Trump is America's Shadow.

Since it's probably only a matter of time before Texas goes Blue due to demographic changes, I'm curious how the GOP will respond when they're literally unable to win presidential elections in the Electoral College. Maybe we'll finally abolish the Electoral College at long last.

Ha! Yes, I recall Don Beck's telling of that story during a lecture series on SD that I was listening to a while back.

In some of his other works he goes on to explain how Green often fails to recognize the differences between Dominator Hierarchies (which are bad and should be done away with) and Growth Hierarchies (or Holarchies as calls them).

Systems Thinking isn't exclusive to Yellow, as it has it's beginnings in awareness of systemic issues beginning in Green. I could probably make an argument that a handful of pre-Green intellectuals like Marx and Hegel tapped into elements of systems thinking (though in a limited way). The inter-intra distinction of systems thinking between Green and Yellow that was mentioned makes a lot of sense. @Rilles. Great post by the way.

While I'm still somewhat new to Vaush's channel, I've noticed that he can come across as abrasive at times, even while the points he's making are completely valid. Which is why I was really impressed by the level of patience and compassion he displayed while debating with a young and impressionable kid who most likely grew up in Conservative household, and was a victim of right wing emotional manipulation and fear mongering. Of course it's a two way street and the conversation turned out as respectful as it did because the kid was open minded enough to at least listen to the points Vaush was making, but it was encouraging to see, and something Lefties should be more open minded to when these sorts of opportunities present themselves.

Nice!

Groundhog's Day - Hey, a beloved movie that's about self actualization and emotional growth, and playfully explores the Buddhist notion of samsara.

Ah the old Empiricism vs Phenomenology debate... the fun part is that the Authenticity question between the two is probably unresolvable, and will most likely be with us for as long as humans are around.

"The Gang Becomes Spiral Wizards"

Rorschach from Watchmen is a great, nuanced take on stage Blue 'One Right Way' absolutism, and the work is interesting for deconstructing the Black and White morality at heart of the character's worldview without demonizing it.

For sure. That's why I seriously question anyone who claims to be at a Tier-2 stage in their teens / early twenties, when you consider that Mastering something like Systems or Holistic Thinking not only takes a ton of time but also quite a bit of education and life experience. While I myself strongly resonate with Systems Thinking, I'm also honest enough with myself to realize that I'm probably several years away from mastering it to the point where it becomes second nature. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people who resonate with Yellow are in more of a transitional state between Green and Yellow (or mistaking Orange hyper-rationalism for Yellow Systems Thinking).

Also I think there's a huge difference between resonating with the ethos of a stage and actually embodying it. As an example I can resonate with the Systems Thinking of Yellow while also not fully embodying and mastering it yet.

It seems fairly obvious that he has a Personality Disorder, but does anyone know if it goes beyond that into a diagnosable mental illness?

Hey, exceptions will exist to most generalizations I suppose. Your situation sounds fairly unique. I would venture that the vast majority of people in thier early 20s claiming to be Yellow Systems Thinkers are actually stage Orange.

I would think that it would be much quicker than that to reach the Stage that's Center of Gravity for the culture you happen to be living in, and progressively longer for each Stage beyond that. In America reaching a Blue / Orange level of development is basically the default, and where a majority of people will end up without putting any effort or work in. In our society it's also not too difficult to go beyond that and reach Green, and depending on how one is Socialized growing up it can be achieved relatively early in one's development (about a quarter of the US adult population is at Green). Going beyond that is going to take much longer and take much more work on your part, since the Tier 2 stages aren't part of the cultural zietgeist at this present moment. 10 plus years to go from Green to Yellow doesn't sound at all unreasonable. I could see someone being at Orange or Green in thier early twenties. No way is someone going to be a Yellow Systems Thinker at that age.

Agreed. From what I understand Rogan was friends with Alex Jones since back in either the 2000s or 90s, but the Sandy Hook hoax conspiracy theory probably would have been the cutoff point to stop giving this gut legitimacy by putting him on your platform.

I could also see how someone like Alex Jones could have come across as more benign back before we had an Authoritarian demagogue using Conspiracy Theories to shape the course of US politics; hard to make that same argument now when the negative consequences of giving someone like that legitimacy and a platform are so obvious. Fair point though; might be worth keeping in mind that JRE started as a comedian's podcast that was sponsored by The FleshLight. I genuinely think Joe Rogan means well, but probably isn't cognizant of how impactful his show has become. 'The Marketplace of Ideas' concept that he uses to rationalize this is definitely an SD stage Orange oversimplification, and hopefully something he can outgrow at some point.

Funny you mention that, I finished reading that a few weeks ago. Would be very interested to see him explore more topics outside of Food and Nutrition.

This is something I've been struggling with a bit as well. Been a fan of his podcast for years, and without it I may never have been exposed to a number of people that I've learned a great deal from. Talking with a wide array of people from all walks of the political spectrum sounds awesome in theory, until it starts legitimizing people who are harming public discourse jn tangible ways.

I don't think I could be friends with someone who caused suffering to grieving parents by publicly proclaiming that the mass shooting thier children died in was a hoax. I don't know how Joe does it, and I'm sorry to say that as much as I like Rogan this makes me think less of him.

Too narcissistic to be Yellow. Having some awareness of Constructs alone does not a Yellow make.