DocWatts

Not sure whether this has already been posted somewhere else, but the compassionate approach taken by the therapist conducting the interview is a good reminder that people who embody SD-Red aren't monsters so much as people who are easily deceived and manipulated because they're lacking in development. Many of these people have led sad lives, and use conspiracy theories as a dysfunctional way of coping with unmet deficiency needs.

Being that the entire notion of Free Will comes from mistaken Enlightenment era assumptions that the Mind is somehow disembodied, having something that was a Myth from the very beginning confirmed to be not true by Empirical evidence shouldn't be a cause for distress.

I see this more as a non issue owing to mistaken assumptions behind how Free Will is framed, which itself is a legacy of Enlightenment era philosphy. A common misconception is to conflate the empirical evidence for the lack of Free Will with the idea that all of our Choices are pre-determined, which itself takes for granted that the a-priori assumption that we live in a deterministic 'clock work' universe. Just because the Mind is not Free to think whatever it wants due to the embodied nature of the conceptual systems we use to navigate reality, doesn't mean that we lack the capacity to think and reflect on out lived experiences. Nor are we prevented from using that process to inform the ways we approach life. Think about it. If we didn't have the ability to do so, from an evolutionary standpoint how could we possibly have survived and developed to the point to speculate om philosophical questions?

What would someone living by 'socialist ideals' mean in your view? From Vaush's own political ideology (Libertarian Market Socialism), his socio-economic ideals as I understand them involve an expansion of democracy in to the workplace (acceas to the means of production through worker owned businesses) and de-commoditization of essential goods and services. So how is being a self employed political commentator a betrayal of these goals? As others have already pointed out, socialism is not against the idea of wealth, it's against using control of Capitol for exploitative purposes.

Not sure what people are expecting as far as Green individuals meeting their Survival Needs in an Orange society. A life of asceticism? Living "off the grid" in a hippie commune until capitalism collapses? Having any impact at all on the broader culture entails having to engage with the socio-economic system that exists, which in the States is Capitalism.

Liked the video, but maybe framing a sociological discussion as a Conspiracy Theory right at the beginning was a mistake. That's like putting a loaded machine gun in to the chimp enclosure with the assurance that surely the chimps won't pick it up and use it

Haven't seen anything particularly objectionable in his political content, aside perhaps from some jokes that could be taken in out of context in Bad Faith if someone were so inclined. I don't agree with all of Vaush's takes, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Nothing so far from what I've seen leads me to think that any of his content has been irresponsible, like a certain person on Spotify that's been platforming toxic Right wingers and spreading Covid misinformation.

Any Stage above the center of gravity for one's Culture will require some degree of exceptionalism to navigate and embody, simply because the support structures which help ordinary people imbue said Stage are either Limited or Non Existent Perhaps in a couple hundred years societies will be structured in a way where the natural 'pull' is towards Yellow, but that's a long way off.

More like China does not yet have the same level of global power and influence as the US, though that gap has been progressively shrinking over the last half century. If the United States is a bigger threat to world peace than China, it's not because China's governmental system is any more ethical than the United States. It's because China hasn't had as much of an incentive (nor the opportunity) to become an Imperialist power to the same degree as the United States. Look to Tibet or Hong Kong if you have any doubts that China has moral qualms about engaging in Imperialism, or at least any more than the United States.

@captainamerica Sounds like we don't have a broad disagreement so much as a difference in emphasis. Some amount of inequality is not only unavoidable but beneficial to a society (in this respect I'm in complete agreement with the political philosopher John Rawl's treatment of inequality in A Theory of Justice). Where my emphasis lies is in the need for a socio-economic Floor, so that inequality doesn't leave people destitute to the point of being unable to participate in society and unable to enjoy a dignified life. As far as education, high quality education should at a minimum consist of (in no particular order): (1) Civic education which allows people to participate in electoral democracy in an informed way. This would involve things like the economic factors you mentioned, but also things like Media Literacy, Epistemology, and History. Social awareness about race and gender relations would go here as well. (2) Career training and education which helps people cultivate a passion for something that they can make a living off from. STEM, technical training in a Trade. This would also include how to navigate the job market, how to transition in to career. How to write a resume, negotiate a salary, etc. It should also cover basic entrepreneurship as well, with more extensive training as an option for those who are interested. (3) Basic life skills such as comprehensive sex education, nutrition, emotional mastery including conflict resolution, and personal financial literacy. Also honest and comprehensive drug education based on Harm Reduction rather than abstinence (basically the opposite of the flagrantly dishonest D.A.R.E. program that many of us grew up with).

Consider the way you're Framing the problem, by way of focusing exclusively on entrepreneurship. The vast majority of people in society are not entrepreneurs and will never attempt to start a business. Nor could our current society function if everyone decided to quit thier jobs and become an entrepreneur. The vast majority of work done in our society is waged labor, and is likely to remain so for at least the foreseeable future. Imagine someone with the potential to become just as intelligent and driven as Elon Musk, but who began life as an unwanted pregnancy and was born in to a family which is financially destitute, where perhaps one or both of his parents have serious substance abuse problems as a way of coping with thier stressful and depressing situation. Not hard to imagine how growing up in a stressful and desperate situation can scar that person psychologically in ways that make good judgement more difficult, and thus damage that person's chances of succeeding compared to peers who grow up in more privileged circumstances. Also imagine that because of the difficult survival circumstances this person is faced with, they end up getting in to trouble as a young adult and end up with a criminal record that makes securing a job (let alone a loan to start a business) much more difficult. While it's undeniably true that it's unrealistic to negate all inequity that comes with the Birth Lottery, much of the disadvantages from my earlier example has at its Root social causes (poverty in this case), which can be addressed by social institutions (ie the gov't) putting in place redistributive mechanisms such as universal health care, high quality universal education, labor rights, etc. Just consider the fact that in a place the like the US public schools are funded by local property taxes, with the quality of one's education being tied to the income level of one's zip code, and how this structurally bakes in inequality. People are not being given anywhere close to an equal opportunity to succeed under this sort of system.

Have you ever considered as a video topic the use (and misuse) of the Western philosophical tradition? Hegel would make an interesting topic for the blog or as a short form video.

Sure, and that's not to say that someone's Efforts don't also play a large role in how successful that person is. But success in our society also depends on having access to social and financial capital so one can actually better themselves through thier efforts. And access to Social and Financial capital is in large part determined by the Birth Lottery (though well functioning redistributive mechanisms can mitigate at least some of this). Working hard without having access to these things will more than likely result in someone ending up as an exploited Wage Slave.

Not so much a comment on Jordan Peterson who's at least a bit more nuanced about the idea of 'personal responsibility', but the way that 'personal responsibility' is typically used by conservatives is as a highly self serving ego defense mechanism, completely taking for granted the role that privilege and luck have had in thier own success. "I know that I succeeded because I'm honest and hard working, so if someone else isn't as successful as me it must be because they're lazy."

This ^ %100. Nor is this incomparable with taking the time and effort to understand what causes someone to adopt the role of a victimizer. Just that our first ethical obligation is to extend empathy and compassion with people who have been disempowered and victimized, and only secondarily towards thier victimizers and abusers.

Just one person's considered opinion, but it would be wise to mindful of the limitations that come with treating Spiral Dynamics as a proxy for an individual's overall level of development. The reason for this is that the meta-ideology or paradigm that forms the basis of one's conceptual system is only one part of an individual's overall development, and is something that can be related to at different levels of depth and complexity. Namely that individuals can be at a level of depth and complexity that's either above or below the meta-ideology they've been imprinted with. Consider Marcus Auerilus and George W Bush, two figures who used Blue as the basis of their conceptual systems, and the differences in depth and complexity between the two. On a personal level I may use Yellow as part of my conceptual system, but I also know that the Yellow I've been imprinted with is a flattened and simplified version compared with the likes of someone like Noam Chomsky or Ken Wilber. In my view Spiral Dynamics is much better used as a sociological model which describes the interplay of how meta-ideologies develop and interact with one another, and how Survival Needs play out in different historical and social contexts.

Not only does Ted Kuzinscki gets his 'meta' anaylsis wrong (not understanding the developmental and dialectical aspects of society), but is fundamentally mistaken about the solutions to the problems of Modernity. Regressing to an earlier anarcho-primativism is a non-starter for a planet will close to 8 billion people on it. Solving the problems caused by Modernity is only accomplished at the next level of development, rather than regressing to an earlier era. Going Meta isn't actually a benefit if you manage to get your analysis at that level very wrong...

While I'm not disputing the overall point of the video that people act for understandable and self-justifying reasons, from a pragmatic point of view there is a question of how ethically appropriate it is to extend our full compassion towards people who abuse and victimize others, versus reserving that compassion for those who are victims of abuse and maltreatment. After all, we still need to reconcile our understanding of why people behave they way they do with the pragmatic reality of needing to hold people accountable for thier actions. Is it appropriate to extend to the architects of the Holocaust our compassion when they themselves built a system which denied any compassion whatsoever to millions of other human beings? If so, does extending compassion to people who abuse and mistreat others cause indirect harm to those who have been victimized by such people because it devalues their suffering? Even if most examples from everyday lived experience aren't so extreme, at the same time it's not hard to find examples where it's fairly easy to delineate who is the abuser and who is the victim in a given situation. What you have here is in some ways a classic Free Rider problem, not too dissimilar to questions such as how far Tolerance should be extended to those who are Intolerant of others. While I won't claim that there's an easy and unambiguous answer to these problems, I do think it's completely fair to at least ask the question.

I'm quite familiar with Wilber's take on the Great Nest of Being (of Matter to Mind to Soul to Spirit). My question was more along the lines of how Leo's ontology does (or does not) match up with with Wilber's metaphysics. Placing physical reality inside of a holarchy (as its most fundamental but least significant component) does not deny it ontological existence, so much as it disputes its claims to exclusivity; something that I broadly agree with, for what it's worth. An ontology where physical reality is a projection of consciousness (as Leo is asserting) is a different and more radical claim, at least if I'm understanding him correctly. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken about either Wilber or Leo's views.

I expect you'll disagree, but my initial impression is that this does sound a bit like an Idealist mirror of naive realism (either that reality is exactly how it appears, or our experience of reality is done via unproblematic representation of an external pre-given world). Also, how does the notion of Interiors and Exteriors (in the Wilberian Four Quadrants sense) work in that sort of ontology?

Perhaps you could clarify a point for me then, just to make sure that in disagreeing with you I'm not distorting your views on metaphysics. When you claim that physical reality is a projection of consciousness, that is intended as an ontological claim about reality, correct? Rather than as a more limited claim about the world of appearances (in the Kantian sense) that we inhabit in our everyday lived reality, that is. While I have no disagreements with the latter more limited claim, I do have trouble seeing how swapping out one type of Reductionism for another is much of an improvement over Materialism.

To offer another perspective on this, it's not that the Materialist account of consciousness is flat out wrong, so much is that's highly partial and incomplete. While it is true that the subjective nature of consciousness has physical correlates, such that if the physical brain is damaged or altered it changes the nature of how consciousness is experienced, where the materialist account makes a crucial mistake is by trying to reduce consciousness to a physical or mechanical processes. While I recognize that I disagree with Leo (and a number of other people here) on this point, I do think that in rejecting the Materialist paradigm the pendulum can swing towards the other extreme, that of a sort of radical Subjectivism. Which is really just another sort of Reductionism, the main difference being that instead of trying to reduce Consciousness to physical processes, one reduces all physical aspects of reality as a projection of consciousness. A sort of Middle Way (to appropriate the term from Madhyamaka) between either of these two extremes, where reality has both physical and non-physical dimensions (neither one being reducible to the other), seems far more defensible as an ontological basis for one's metaphysics. But that's just one person's considered opinion

The core of Socialism simply means giving workers access to the means of production (and thus autonomy over their Labor), which in practical terms means worker owned workplaces and industries.

@ArcticGong Tough one. Orwell himself was a democratic Socialist and probably closer to an emerging Green. As far as his work I suppose you could say it perhaps resonates with the value systems of both Orange and Green, but I wouldn't say that it's a particularly clear cut embodiment of either one. What's interesting about his work is that it's Universalist enough that several different ideologies have attempted to appropriate his work (sometimes misunderstanding it in the process). Another thing about his work is that it doesn't really fit neatly into an established Literary style (such as Orange Modernism or Green Postmidernism), like some of the other works that have been mentioned.

I was going back and revisiting some works of literature recently, which got me to pondering artistic expression at different levels of the Spiral. As an interesting thought experiment I began consider which works of literature would perhaps best embody the ethos of the various worldviews, and thought that this might make an interesting idea for a Thread. Here's what I've come up with so far: Red - The Illiad and the Odyssey : Homer. Blue - Crime and Punishment & The Brothers Karamozov : Fyodor Dostoyevsky Orange - Les Miserables : Victor Hugo. Ulysses : James Joyce. Moby Dick : Herman Melville. Green - Gravity's Rainbow : Thomas Pynchon. Yellow - Infinite Jest : David Foster Wallace