Vrubel

I agree to a large degree, but Israel does not exist at the expense of the Palestinians rather: Israel exists. And the Palestinians are not willing to accept this reality, they want from the river to the sea. And let's not be naive about what this means in practical reality. If the ultimate goal of the Palestinians is to live and grow (preferably also to build and educate but apparently that is too much to ask now) they should not do actions that lay them at the feet of Israelis. Israelis are generally more developed and more connected with the broader world but it does not mean they are angles, yes there is Ben Gvir and Smotrich. So don't beg for a genocide. Even if a genocide was to happen it would go down in history books as provoked by mass murder and unspeakable atrocities. The sons of Israeli politicians and more broadly the Israeli elite are fighting just the same as everybody else. This is also an important point about Israeli society, values and morale which is very admirable. But generally speaking, the flames are fanned by extremists on both sides and the solution will have to come from a reasonable center position. I know Israel has a broad centrist base that is highly reasonable and open to peace. They are polled to win the next elections. Not sure how strong the Palestinian moderates are but at least they exist. I get your point but I think we differ on a fundamental level in mentality. There is a reason why I keep emphasizing to look at the satellite map view of how sprawling Palestinian villages and towns are and on street level how their houses are roomy with often big gardens. Because these people are not absolutely oppressed in some kind of Warsaw Ghetto. These people are not slaves and have freewill to choose how they pursue their political goals but they choose for war and terror. If not committing it then supporting it. So if you choose such a path you'll inevitably have to deal with the consequences of this path. From a geopolitical to a state security POV there is no way Israel can let Hamas off the hook.

@Nivsch Yes, back then people thought that peace was around the corner and even the IDF got scaled back.

The claim is so subtle that it is false. If Israel wants genocide they would have done it a long time ago. Israelis always wanted and idealistically craved peace but got embittered along the way due to Palestinian terrorism and savagery. Israelis have now zero trust in Palestinians and you can't blame them. I want them to have a state but I don't trust them with it because they are so vicious and underdeveloped. Ironically the system of checkpoints and occasional raids on terrorist organizing is effective security.

@Danioover9000 I apologize if I misinterpreted you

@Leo Gura Look at a satellite image of Palestine: they build their roomy houses all across with big gardens and big land plots. Nobody is going to ethnically cleanse Palestinians. Their population has only grown and their urban and rural areas only increase. I have nuanced and left-leaning views where I in certain cases support Arabs against racism and Israeli excesses and I want them to have a state. But I am done sharing those, my top priority now is to stand up against the lies and deceit. If you want a whiny little echo chamber, fine!

@Danioover9000 Dude you literally had a mental breakdown here and made baseless accusations of harassment and hate and I am the precious little ruby!? I don't want to be mean to you because you seem very fragile and It's not my style but when you give punches you must also expect to take them as well. My point is that Israel was pretty much on its own from the beginning. Obviously, Israel does depend on allies as a smaller power and as any other country functioning in the world. But 100% It fought its wars and built a top-tier country on its own, all that in a very difficult and unforgiving environment. This takes grit and virtue which I respect and value.

@Girzo Respect is due where respect is due. I know you people don't care about such things. Your understanding of history is extremely skewed. Learn about the covert ways Israel acquired its weapons during the War of Independence because nobody wanted to support them. Nobody thought the country would survive and even thrive. America only got interested in Israel after the 70's when it became clear that Israel was strong and here to stay.

Israel was won by true grit and raw human virtue.

Japanese society and work ethic are incredibly demanding, many young people of the more pampered newer generations will inevitably fall away and need support systems.

Hear you man, I soon will have no choice but to leave this thread due to developments in my personal life and simply not having any time. Most of the people still hanging around this thread are pretty unreasonable and irredeemably biased anyway. You can see the eagerness for denial and jumping to conclusions. All they care about is their own incredibly narrow narrative. This is probably not even their own original and authentic thought and feelings but a pre-packaged propaganda narrative from a loud minority that will lash out at you if you're not part of their hive mind. On the flip side, some people here were reasonable enough and had interesting perspectives. And there was also some enjoyment for me in gathering together my thoughts and expressing myself. And don't worry, I will also definitely come to Israel soon and do some volunteering!

The truth shines upon Israel as the soft winter sun on the handsome faces of the boys and girls of the IDF fighting savages in Gaza.

Your whole game is being the pure moral guy. Which is fine, I am sure you're a friendly guy blessed with life in a peaceful part of the world. Your last sentence here is (inadvertently) very wise. Truth and morality have different forms in different contexts. If Jews were just as unhinged and emotional as the Palestinians it would have been a genocide a long time ago. There are forces keeping Israel in check including a higher sense of morality and rationality. Israel is literally one of the most diverse countries in the world, a beacon of civilization amongst a sea of failed states and terrorist savages. Sorry that they are not some futuristic utopia where people don't bother with removing existential threats of pure savagery to their state and citizens.

Extremely tragic and very sad. Let's look at the reasons: 1. Hamas started a war (important context) 2. The nature of the battle will produce unavoidably collateral. (It's not a Napoleonic-era battle in an open field) 3. IDF can make mistakes 4. Intent matters a lot 5. Half of the Gazan population is children. 6. Hamas combatants also include teenagers 16+ 7. Hamas tactics purposefully endanger civilians 8. Israel cares more for civilians than Hamas (tragic but undeniable truth) 9. Hamas benefits from dead children, Israel does not. (see point 4.) As harsh as it sounds the Hamas attack has literally put Gaza at the mercy of Israel. It was a genocide begging attack and anything less they get is because of the mercy and grace of Israel. Btw Israel doesn't even boycott South Africa's genocide case because they don't fear the lies and deceit.

I would advise the people on this thread to be more critical of the sources you share. They are mostly highly selected snippets from purposeful and obvious propaganda channels. As pro-Israel as I am, I still can see when propaganda skews the truth and is too eager to jump to conclusions from both sides. For example, I don't like the title of the Iran video. Quickly jumping to a conclusion that fits your agenda is a sign of a mushy mind that cannot be taken seriously or at least with a huge grain of salt.

Thank you for the share, very interesting. Iranians have indeed been playing a smart sneaky game of surrounding Israel. They basically have been playing the Palestinians as sacrificial pawns and the Lebanese Shiite to do their bidding as an extension of the revolutionary guard. I don't know if Israel can replicate Iran's strategy with disenfranchised Iranian minorities or Persians because they seem to be way better educated and more developed than most Arabs, so a higher consciousness approach would be needed. The tragedy of Iran is that an otherwise educated and wealthy country is being held hostage by a radical ideological section. Also, it's hard to funnel money and arms to opposition groups in such a country. Iran is not Lebanon, Syria or Yemen. All three of them are failed states whose corpses are being possessed and animated by Iran.

When you use tactics like this you lose the right to cry about "civilian" casualties.

@Raze Standing up to Putin is not warmongering. Even if Russia has its own agenda that might justify an invasion. The system of governance in Russia is so corrupt, backward and mafia-like that no Western actor could take him seriously at face level. In some cases you need balls and make a stand against a crook, this is not war-mongering.

@kenway It's not a genocide but it is something Hamas begged for on 7/10. Copy-Paste* Consider that the alternative of Hamas staying in power in Gaza is worse than having this war. As destructive as this war is it will give the Palestinians a chance to obtain a healthy government that does not dehumanize them but looks after their basic needs and interests.

An insanely corrupt and dysfunctional country

Your good faith is noted. But my general point still stands: Your views are generally just too innocent and naive. As again illustrated by your last post. Israel is not some dumb dodo bird that is going to let Hamas off the hook. You guys here try to play a game of diminishing the threat and actions of Hamas and pretend the Palestinians are totally oppressed without agency in some kind of concentration camp and have zero responsibility for their depraved actions. That's why I keep telling you guys to watch 4k walking videos of Palestine.

@Raze I never said Jews are superior to anyone but there are cultural and societal differences that are worth noting. It's a shame that Israel has such a hard-right government. But then again Hamas doesn't give a shit what kind of government Israel has. Also before the war Israelis were consistently and massively protesting their government.

Oh bohoo, those poor Isis Nazis. They should be left alone and do as many 7/10's as they wish. That will teach those oppressive white colonial Jews who dare to build a successful country in their own homeland after 2000 years of persecution. Look at 4K street walk videos of how Gaza looked like before the war and compare Palestine with neighboring Arab countries. Not everything is Israel's fault. Just look at how the people in Lebanon, Egypt, Sudan, Syria are struggling without a Jew insight. If the Palestinians built something great in Gaza, like a peaceful, educated and wealthy society they would have been an inspiration to the world and Jews would have been much more open to even a one-state solution. But the reality is that the Jews don't even have enough trust for a two-state solution. Though in my opinion, that's still the best solution but will require some serious creativity. I will also reincarnate as a Nazi, so Nazis should be left alone.

It's not an exaggeration at all to equate Hamas with Nazis, they want to genocide Jews and committed ISIS-like atrocities against Israeli families, young women and girls. They are basically the Arab Nazis. This point alone skews your whole view of this situation. Your views are generally just too innocent, naive and idealistic for this harsh reality.

Not to reform but to remove Hamas from power. I don't know how effective a denazification-like process in Gaza will be given their situation and level of development. Ideally, they will clean up their education system putting the focus on building up Gaza instead of destroying Israel. But on the other hand, Israel will never trust Gazans to work in Israel again or make use of their hospitals so their economic, social, and political situation will remain volatile. These are two entirely different dimensions of radical. Despite everything, Netanyahu/Israel's government is a reasonable state actor bound to certain geopolitical realities. The logic of war: You overpower your enemy with the force of violence. If you don't want the consequences of war, don't start one. If Hamas surrenders today this war will be over immediately. But they don't, so they need to get overpowered. Copy-paste* Consider that the alternative of Hamas staying in power in Gaza is worse than having this war. As destructive as this war is it will give the Palestinians a chance to obtain a healthy government that does not dehumanize them but looks after their basic needs and interests. People didn't call for a ceasefire while the Allies were advancing on Berlin. Even though Germans suffered much worse than Gazans. I used to be critical of the Allied bombing of German cities but I also realized that in the heat and tension of the war, you'll do everything to overpower the enemy and ultimately it was not the Allies that started the war.

@Happy Lizard If you look at history, radicalized armies/governments/populations were always dealt with with a heavy hand. Just think of Dresden or Hiroshima. The Korean War is also a good example. However, it failed because of Chinese intervention and communists taking over in the North. Can you imagine if America fully won that war and all of Korea was free and wealthy like South Korea. To be honest I don't know if Palestinians can be compared to Germans, Japanese or Koreans because they have their own unique situation and a level of development far below the aforementioned groups. Consider that the alternative of Hamas staying in power in Gaza is worse than having this war. As destructive as this war is it will give the Palestinians a chance to obtain a healthy government that does not dehumanize them but looks after their basic needs and interests.