r0ckyreed

All dualities must collapse. Spirituality = Science

I want to steel man science. I feel like a lot of people take Leo's critique of science without actually thinking about it for themselves. One of the dangers of dismissing science as "a human dream" or whatever seems like a straw man and is no different logically than a religious nut dismissing science. I feel like that is a serious trap. When we critique science, we are merely explaining its limitations. But I am going to argue that there are no limitations to science. To quote Ms. Grant from Life is Strange Episode 4: "Nothing beyond science except for our lack of knowledge. We may never know why, but that doesn't change reality." Science is merely about truth and understanding. However, I do understand Leo's critiques in that mainstream science is narrow and is full of biases. But what people may not consider is that even doing psychedelics is a form of science. Why are we accepting the mainstream cultural definition of what science is? If mainstream views science in a narrow way, we should be showing them more advanced ways of doing science. The wrong approach is associate all of science with mainstream science. I truly am convinced that there is nothing beyond science but our lack of knowledge. Reality exists as it is whether or not we agree with it. I am not going to pretend like I know anything, but anything we say is "beyond or transcends" science is within science in the same way that you might argue that whatever is beyond consciousness is inside of consciousness. We may not be aware or know much about our reality. But there is even a science to voodoo, witchcraft, potion making, cooking, spirituality, psychedelics, math, meditation, religion, psychology, parapsychology, awakening, etc. Nothing is beyond science but our lack of knowledge. If you think science is a dream, then I could also say that awakening is a dream. I even question whether awakening is even possible or if it is just another dream within the dream. Reality to me is too profound to be known or understood. What even is the difference between an awakening and an insight? It seems like people who say they have had an awakening are really meaning that they have had an insight. You can have an infinite amount of insights. But I doubt that total awakening is even possible. If reality is infinite, then that means that it will always been infinitely mysterious and you can never fully awaken to it. We have so much finite time in this form. The part can never grasp the whole. Awakening is an illusion but we can do the best we can. What else is there to do?

Ever heard of chaos theory? How the hell would you know that nothing is random?

By our nature, to survive is to assume that there is a world that we are in. All beings have this fundamental assumption in an external world whether they are aware of it or not.

How do we know the patient exists and can see? @spiritual memes Gotcha. I was referring to epistemological solipsism. Sorry I didn't make that clear from the start. Here is an interesting article for you all: https://qz.com/866352/scientists-say-your-mind-isnt-confined-to-your-brain-or-even-your-body

Deep down. We are all epistemological solipsists. We cannot know for certain anything existing outside of consciousness. Our epistemology already limits us to all being solipsists. Of course, you can deny you are a solipsist, but the reality is that you can't know anything outside of your consciousness, which makes us all solipsists. We cannot know if we are dreaming or not right now with absolute certainty. Anything else like dualism, physicalism, idealism, etc. is all just a game you are playing. The truth is that I can only know that consciousness exists and nothing else. If you exist, then I assume that your epistemology is similar to mine. So actually, I cannot state the claim I made in my second sentence because I do not know that. But I assume you exist and assume that your consciousness works like mine.

All analogies are limited. Everything depends on something else. But there must be a point in which there is something that doesn't depend on anything. A game depends on a console and tv to exist. There is no GTA V without a TV and game console. There is no picture without a camera. There is no consciousness without a brain. There is no brain without an Earth, star, universe etc. There has to be a point in which there is a foundational energy or Force like in Star Wars that holds everything together and keeps it all in balance. All dualities are contained within The Force even the duality between the material and immaterial. If my Consciousness is God, then why is it dependent on food, water, brain, biology, genes, etc.? Of course I am perceiving all of these within consciousness and can never perceive their true absolute nature. Edit: Please note that I am agnostic about all of this stuff. I am merely trying to steel man the materialists position. I feel like we get a lot of straw mans of the materialist worldview from Leo. I am merely trying to present the best arguments for that worldview which I think I have done so already. My ultimate position is that I don't know anything except that consciousness exists. Maybe consciousness is an illusion and produced by brains and nervous system, but I cannot doubt the fact that consciousness appears to exist. I am aware of this sentence so that presupposes that I am conscious of it. But I could be totally wrong in assuming that my conscious experience exists independently of the world of phenomenon.

Well. If Solipsism is true, the person does not have conscious experience and is like a robot. They have no qualia. Their brain is like the operating system that produces the illusion of conscious experience. I cannot know for certain whether other people have consciousness. Everything I know about another being is objectified. An animal is an object in my consciousness. In my subjective experience, I am the only subject there is. But I seriously doubt that I am the only subject. If you are actually conscious right now and are not just some philosophical zombie or dream character of mine, then I could never possibly know, but that doesn't mean that metaphysical solipsism is true. Epistemological solipsism is the case, but metaphysical solipsism is still a big question mark. There are so many limits to my epistemology that I am always limited to my own point of view.

Without the camera, there is no picture. Without the brain, there is no consciousness. Why are humans conscious and intelligent whereas an amoeba and tree aren’t at least to our degree? It has to do with the organization of the brain. The brain is made out of The Force or God or Nature or whatever. If the brain isn’t the originator of consciousness, then why is it that we can make change peoples consciousness through a change in their brain? I can poke your arm and you would feel pain. But if I poke your brain, you would no longer be “you.” But we don’t just stop at the brain. You are the entire Universe. The entire universe or God or Force has created the brain and subjectivity/ego. Without a brain, sun, plants, oxygen, etc. there is just empty Force Consciousness. What really baffles my mind is how is there life at all? Why is my couch considered lifeless whereas a plant is considered to be life. Our brain is constantly making our life movie. Our memory and brain are linked together in the same way that a camera and picture are. Camera and picture are one. The brain and consciousness are also one. Brain = Consciousness.

I could also use my phone camera and take a picture of it in the mirror. The image of my phone is in the picture and yet was the source of the image. How do we know the brain doesn’t work like that? I will add another perspective that with consciousness it seems different because how can anything you see (an object) be the source of the subject?

Where did you get that worksheet from? I didn’t know there were worksheets for each video! That is too cool!

Experience = Consciousness!!!

Is change/impermanence an illusion? My thoughts prior to reading Parmenides: Given that the past and future are imaginary and only the Now exists, it follows that change is an illusion since there can be no change without time. And there can be no change without Truth. If Truth is unchanging, then change ultimately is not true. Change is an appearance of that which is unchanging. But appearances are content within Truth. The boundary between changing and unchanging doesn't exist. Everything is Unchanging because Everything is Truth. If the Truth can change, then the Truth has not always been. But the Truth by definition is eternal and unchanging. If the Truth can change, then Truth is not an Absolute since what used to be the Absolute is no longer the Absolute; hence, it is a self-defeating. Truth is unchanging by its nature. That is why Truth is more fundamental than fact. All that appears to be changing is the Unchanging. Change is imaginary and is ultimately relative and not Absolute Truth. Parmenides thoughts on change: Parmenides gives the argument that if something exists, then it has always existed and always will be. He states that the appearance of change is an illusion and we are misled by our senses. Our mind is constructing change. Parmenides also argues that everything is one. Since the Universe is one thing, that means that all differences and distinctions are arbitrary such as the distinction between the changing and the unchanging. Differences in time are also an illusion according to Parmenides since the Universe is One and Time is always Now. All of history is like a movie all contained on The One DVD. The appearance of movement is an illusion. It is just one impression and one occurrence. The mind is imagining movement and frames. Zeno's paradox - To get from point A to point B presupposes that you must go through an infinite number of tasks in finite time. To get to point B, you must reach half of the way, then 1/4, then 1/16, then 1/32, then 1/100, and this goes all the way to infinity such that you never actually reach point B. Point B is only imagined. You are always Here! You are never There and you never get There. Here is all you can be. Reason tells us that change is an illusion but our senses seem to tell us that change is possible. What are your thoughts on impermanence being an illusion? Given your understanding of Buddhism and the concept of anicca (impermanence) and the Eternal Now, how would you resolve this paradox? How can Now be unchanging/eternal and yet also be impermanent? Maybe it is like I suggested, impermanence is relative to the Unchanging Absolute?

But change is an illusion since time is an illusion. Truth is unchanging by its nature. See my recent post on Why Impermanence Is An Illusion? for more on that. Edit: If other minds don't exist and external reality does not exist, then it is not too difficult to further state that change, location, travel, and time don't exist.

What are your top three? I like the techniques you listed there. Can you tell me a little bit more about them and where you got them from? my top three are 1. Actuality 2. Solipsism, and 3. Contemplation

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/12/13/tik-tok-utah-china/ I am not so sure what to think about the issue anymore. It gets complex because where is the line between safety and tyranny? People should have some freedoms. If alcohol and weed are legal, then why make TikTok illegal? You would need to apply the same logic across the board and that would look tyrannical.

Isn’t impermanence relative though? I thought Truth was unchanging by its nature? How is change Absolute? Parmenides says that impermanence is an illusion and lays out an interesting argument that appearances are relative and can easily deceive us. Consciousness is Truth and appearances are relative you could say. What do you think?

Don’t forget that fear is also good and is love. Why is fear viewed negatively? Consider that fear is what gets you off your ass. Fear is an intense form of desire. It is how you use fear that makes it good or bad. You can use fear to face challenges head on. The essence of courage is facing fear but not eliminating fear.

I have 2 examples that have made me doubt the claim that there is no external world. 1st example: I have ordered a book from Amazon. The book is expected to be delivered to me tomorrow. The book, package, and delivery driver are not just the same as my ideas of Santa Clause. They actually seem to exist behind the scenes. After all, me ordering a book from Amazon assumes that such a book and delivery driver exist outside of my own senses, perceptions, and thoughts. There must be something beyond my own subjective mind, a world beyond my own mind. If this is true, then it is a doubt to Solipsism as well. For, Solipsism claims that the only thing that exists or that can be known to exist is yourself. But how you live your life day to day assumes that solipsism and no external world is false. What is the reality of a book, package, and delivery driver? How is it that there are things that occur behind the scenes if there is no external world? Maybe my subjective experience isn't all there is after all. 2nd Example: Hearing your phone ring when your phone is not being perceived. Getting a phone call and your phone is outside of your mind. How is it that your phone can vibrate and make sounds when it is not held within your consciousness? Of course, your phone (prior to it ringing) is an idea in your consciousness when you think about it. But if you didn't have the idea of your phone and you didn't perceive it, it would seem like it would be the same as it not existing at all. However, even if you don't perceive your phone nor have any thought about your phone, you could still hear it ring in another room. Try this exercise, sit in your room with all doors closed and fully strip away all ideas about history, biology/science, religion, other rooms, other people, and an external world (stuff happening behind the scenes). Now, you are basking in pure raw consciousness as it is. But suddenly, you can perceive your phone ringing in the other room. You didn't set an alarm, you assume it is someone else who has called you by basic logic, which already assumes that other people exist and an external world exists. How is it that when you strip all ideas and perceptions of your phone, that your phone suddenly starts to ring? I mean that is totally possible. By basic logic, this would entail that someone else had to make the call, for the phone cannot ring completely by itself unless you set an alarm. You can talk to people on the phone and they can come over to your house. Now, how is this possible if only your pure subjective experience is all that exists? Notice how your raw perceptions suggest that solipsism is true, but rationality seems to suggest that it isn't. You can notice patterns in the world with your mind. Be open to the idea that everyone has their own sovereign experience. If other people have their own sovereign subjective experience, then you may wonder, where it is occurring? Could it be occurring in an external world? Could it be beyond my subjective imagination like the Amazon package? If the Amazon package exists when I cannot perceive it, is it possible that there are aspects of consciousness hidden from itself as well? If so, how would this work? How can an object within my consciousness have consciousness? But I would object that you cannot find consciousness anywhere in the brain because the brain is an object within consciousness. Sorry, I have a last short example and that is people claiming to see more colors than other people. How is that possible if there are no other minds and no external world? Just because I don't perceive something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I perceive only a small amount of colors compared to a genetic freak who can perceive many colors. For me, I do not have access to the amount of colors that a genetic freak can perceive. This suggests that there is more to reality than what is currently perceived in consciousness. I know that I am thinking of this whole scenario, but I do actually have a package that I expect to be delivered from Amazon! The question is that what is the reality of the package and delivery driver if it is outside of my consciousness? How is it possible for the package to be delivered to my house if there is no external world? Please note, I am merely trying to point out some doubts I have. I am not awake/enlightened nor do I understand anything. The existence of an external world for me is still something I have realized that I have not fully deconstructed because I still believe that my Amazon package exists beyond what I currently perceive. Writing on this forum also seems to assume that solipsism and idealism (a.k.a no external world) are false. Thanks in advance for your time and insights, Rocky

Correct. But what if “knowing” has nothing to do with “existing?” To know requires existence. But maybe there are somethings that I will never know since existence is prior to knowledge. Maybe that one thing that I cannot know but yet may still exist is the existence other sovereign fields of consciousness like my own subjective experience. Of course, the external world and other sovereign minds are inferences, assumptions, and speculations at best, but part of the nature of Infinity is that it exists but it is unknowable. Maybe that could be the case with “external world” and “other minds?” That they exist but are unknowable, which is what epistemological solipsism seems to suggest. On the contrary, when I question what another sovereign consciousness is I run into more issues. The issue that I find is that if there are other sovereign consciousnesses, then they would have to be located in my own subjective experience (behind my eyes so to speak). It is natural to assume that the idea of other minds exist behind humans eyes. But what difference is there really between the consciousness of a table and that of a human? They are both objects inside of my subjective experience. They are both objects inside my dream. Oh shit!! If other minds do exist, they would have to be in me! Experience is not located in any object because all objects are appearances within experience! Now I have no idea what it even means to say that other minds exist because that would conflate subjective experience with the object of a brain. But everything that is known about the brain is a perception and idea in my subjective experience. Now, I think I am getting what is meant by Experience is Absolute. There is nothing more fundamental than that. But I still have my doubts as expressed in paragraph one about whether my subjective experience is the only one. I cannot even conceive of infinity of sovereign subjective experiences. Well, maybe I can but they’d just be my own. But I can only experience One!! I feel like I am slowly breaking at this ice. I felt a little shift in perspective. I’m gonna journal about it more for clarity. Thanks!

Good question. I am not sure. By definition, the implicit is indirect and intuitive in nature. I can't experience the infinitude of space directly, but I can grok it implicitly and indirectly. I think it is kind of like the unconscious mind. The external world can be called "the unconscious mind." I see no difference between the hair growing on my skin and the growth of plants in my garden. It is all the same process to me. It is like a gigantic unconscious mind that runs the entire universe. I checked it. I have only ever experienced my subjective experience. If my subjective experience though is sovereign and all I have, then couldn't you and others also have sovereign experiences like my own? I know that I am inferring the existence of other minds of my own. But if my subjective experience is like it is, then is it possible for their to be other subjective experiences where I become the object in someone else's awareness? Right now, I know that the closest thing I have of experiencing others is objects (i.e., human bodies) within my consciousness, which I assume have a subjective experience like mine behind their eyes. Could it be kind of like a first-person multiplayer online game vs. a single-player first-person? In the multiplayer option, it assumes the existence of "external world" where there are other Playstation consoles (or other minds) connected to the online database (or Infinite Mind). My current console (i.e., mind) cannot perceive the others because they are all sovereign. Or is it more like playing a single-player first-person open-world game like Skyrim, where everything on the screen is me and there are no other players but me? Is that the latter pointer you are talking about? It seems like it to me. But that would mean that my subjective experience is all there is and you all are basically different aspects of my subjective experience. Wow! But I am not aware of everything, so maybe it is more like what I call the "external world" or "universe" is really my unconscious mind. It makes me wonder whether there is even such a thing as an "unconscious universal mind" because if I am not conscious of it, it is just an inference at best. Come to think of it more, I assume that behind the eyes of humans, there is a consciousness like my own that I have never validated directly. Come to think of it now, it doesn't make sense because that would assume that subjective experience is rendered from an object like the brain. But if you look into someone's brain, you never find a subject or consciousness in there (including if I examined my own brain). My own brain would be nothing more than an object within consciousness. So if other consciousnesses exist, they would have to be constructed by my subjective experience like I do in Skyrim or in my dreams. Am I on the right track? It feels like it to me.

The idea of others awakening, let alone existing and being conscious, is inference and speculation.

It is implicit understanding. I have an implicit understanding that space is infinite even though I cannot explicate or prove it or even directly verify it. Even though my experience feels finite (because I can only see so far) it is actually infinite partly because the space around me has no beginning or end.

@Razard86 Wow. That was powerful. You are right. I am overthinking it. My mind is tricking me into another deception. Now I kind of understand why Buddhists say “thinking is dangerous.” The external world and the Amazon package are thoughts in my mind. No more real than past and future. To even think an external world exists is to be lost in the illusion of time. Now, I can see that. Thanks for your intelligence!