LfcCharlie4

This No Desire stuff is mostly BS imo, to me it seems it conflates the absolute & the relative like a lot of Neo-Advaita does you're desiring every single second or you would literally stop breathing And let's be real, every single human alive has preferences in basically every realm of life, I also don't get why you'd want to change that when it serves a crucial purpose No matter how awakened someone is, I can guarantee they have desires from the second they wake up, to the second they fall asleep, as does every living thing in existence Personally, I think seeing through desire is a part of the path, in seeing that absolute happiness (from the absolute) is perfect as it is, therefore desireless, but it goes full circle on a human level and you could say desire goes through an 'upgrade' or evolves, the best description I have heard of this from a teacher (that also describes the cycle of life) is from the saying- 'Desire for the sake of sharing' meaning you no longer simply desire for the self alone but essentially desire for the Self from a place of love, joy & living in general & as a result become a better human I would say a better test of true awakening is actually how good of a person someone is, of course nobody's perfect, but nobody with an integrated awakening lives like a lot of these 'Gurus' do- Sexual scandals, money issues, just being a prick in general etc A lot of modern Non-Duality seems to deny your humanity & this leads to a myriad of issues down the line, I'm more of the belief, that the highest teaching is one that embodies your humanity down to the last drop

@RendHeaven Just to confirm is this the guy you're saying is in the top 0.1% of humans in terms of strength? Also, only thing I would say is we can all provide antidotes to support diet choices- I could just post videos of Brian Turner, Nimai, Rich Roll, Venus Williams, Lewis Hamilton blah blah blah There's a reason Anecdotes are at the bottom of the trusted scientific data Pyramid and Meta Analysis / RCTs are at the top...

100000000% Especially in the modern world Average person eats shit, sits all day, 24/7 instant stimulation, porn, weed, alcohol etc etc and then wonders why their mental health goes to shit I know its not easy for a lot of people, but I think you can also see what really is Trauma / Mental illness once you fix these deficiencies and bad habits For me it was night and day difference once I sorted this out!

I'm biased but any Healthy Vegan cookbook is a good place to start. Michal actually has an e book full of healthy recipes if you work with him! Tbh you just need 5-10 for Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner and then expand slowly as you find more & expand.

@Carl-Richard I'd say there's often an overlap between the two for sure. Biologically, Emotionally, Physically, Spiritually etc...

This is my thoughts from what the data show. I am not saying Meat / Red Meat doesn't count Macros / Micros we need hence why our ancestors ate it, but if we now know there's ways to get those nutrients without the long term risks red meat pose, why not do that?

How do you know it isn't what that person needs right now? Religion can help a lot of people & give them a moral compass to guide their life. Often, it can be very beneficial and might be what some people need. I don't think everyone needs / or is ready for awakening, when you read how life-changing awakening can be & often life destructive (in terms of turning someone's life on their head) not everyone is ready for that. Don't get me wrong, I don't think religion is the end goal, but if these are good people, who are happy & healthy, and have found peace in their life, what's the issue? You always hear in Non-Dual circles that all religions point to the same thing etc (maybe in a roundabout way often!) so maybe the kind of 'Prepatory practices', structure & discipline that religion offers is exactly what a lot of people need right now. The 'New Age' path just isn't for everyone, and Religion isn't for everyone either.

@flowboy Hmm, I call them that as to me I believe things like this should be taught to everyone as part of their education, but they aren't at all are they! Like, the average person has little idea of how to cook, how to eat, why sleep is important, exercise etc. Its a real shame!

Simon Hill's - The Proof Is In The Plants - https://theproof.com/book/ I am biased as have been vegan for over 7 years, but I wish I had this 7 years ago as it taught me a lot on what truly is the healthiest diet for the majority of people, the planet & then of course the ethical side of things. I also found it to not be pushy and just promote eating as plant predominant as possible. I feel a lot of the nutrition & wellbeing advice comes from extremes, whereas this book is solely based on the largest amount of science available. Its split into 3 parts, the issue with Big Food & Big Pharma & how they manipulate to push their own agendas. Everyone knows it but basically they just create confusion & fund their own research, but its interesting on what scale. Part 2 - Goes deep into the science around chronic diseases from Heart disease, to various forms of cancer, and then finishes with the environmental concerns facing us Part 3 (My favorite) - Gives 8 Principles to base eating off of, instead of hard diets it makes it into a lifestyle eventually, with tips on transitioning, key supplements, how Vegan diets can fail etc Personally, I've always been pretty sure WFPB is the healthiest way of living (despite the rise of Liver King & similar influencers who use the odd low quality study) & this is kinda like the final nail in the coffin showing that. He also has a podcast & blog which is awesome

@flowboy Defo not diminishing that at all, but since this is a spirituality / personal dev based forum I assumed everybody does those basic things as well!! However, its also surprising how many 'developed' people actually don't have diet, sleep & exercise down. I mean type in Non-Duality teachers in YouTube and quite a lot are overweight and don't look very healthy, so it is defo important to get these foundational habits nailed imo

Personally prefer Ramaji's book 1000 (its stupidly long) Based on Hawkins work but also states how in reality you can't 'measure consciousness' and these maps are just tools like the 10 Ox Herding pictures. I also liked it as it was a real world account of going through the awakening process, yes it mentions teachers at every 'stage' but the personal anecdote's make it a great read Ramaji is essentially a Non-Duality 'Nerd' who's been round the block and is over 70 now, its probably the booked that helped me the most understand why teachers say such different things.

@Nilsi Do you think AG1 is worth the money? I follow WFPB (vegan), no extremes on Macros but aim to get 140g protein for Gym reasons (probs a bit high as I'm only 167.5lbs & 5"8 but main focus atm) Usually meal prep 2-3 lunches / dinners per week Also after reading Glucose Revolution, made some changes such as 'Green' starters- (basically just veg / high fibre cucumber, Tomato, Peppers, or actual salad, can also be legumes & things like Hummus) before most meals (with vinegar), cutting out snacks and eatings carbs last / as dessert Breakfast - Oats w/ Protein powder, 3x seeds (whatever I have), peanut butter & cinnamon. Finish with half of some kind of fruit smoothie, usually berry with Creatine, Protein, Greens & EAAS. (split up as too much at once) Lunch- Some kind of meal prep- Chilli, Buddha Bowls, Tofu Pasta etc- whatever good recipes I find on social media that week haha, finish with Nuts & Fruit Dinner- Similar, usually involves Legumes, Veggies & carbs like Potatoes / Sweet Potatoes. Finish with rest of fruit smoothie, sometimes Dark Choc Current Supplement- Vegan multivitamin targeting 8 nutrients of need, D3, B12 & Omega 3s. Then Gym wise taking- Kino Mojo (like it a lot, test over 700 now) & testing Ecdysterone / Turkestorone from a UK supplier I found.

@Michael569 From your recent readings & thoughts what do you recommend for your clients? Also feel free to include other habits, supplements, sleep etc as I think just looking at food / drink can be quite reductionist

@VincentArogya Based on the fact you said this is the only thing worth living for it reminds me of a conversation Ramaji shared that he had with Shinzen Young. he came to Shinzen after an awakening experience all giddy & happy with it etc he asked “what shall I do after awakening? It feels amazing!” shinzen said- I recommend going to clean some toilets, cooking your dinner & then finding “regular” people and seeing how they find you for the next few years sometimes, you need to just realise this is it, it’s not always needed to be magical or mystical, this ordinary life is it! (so maybe find some “normal” things to enjoy as well as deconstructing reality! It can get exhausting!)

Its a shame this is rarely discussed as most teachers are catering to 'seekers' with their videos, retreats, books etc. However, for one its never ending, as its life. Its simply the recalibration of all realms of your life with your understanding. Unless you 'work' in this field, expect periods where you don't even think about spirituality and just enjoy life, after all that is the point. But, if you still feel there is more to do awakening wise, defo go for it.

@Asayake Defo interested to hear how that goes. I think a lot have issues with the original transition to WFPB due to such a rapid increase of Fibre & new plants, hence why it needs to be done properly. Do you think previous experience with WFPB helped that maybe? Tbh, what I've found work best for me is simply a balance of macros, and focus on Micros (customized for my gym goals) & making sure to get the 8 nutrients of focus, and just cutting out as much junk as possible!

@Asayake Definitely an interesting perspective, reminds me of Durianrider & Freelee lmao from back in the day However, I've defo found the opposite, I used to eat very high Carb / Sugar breakfasts with fruit smoothies & oats etc, and suffer crashes, since implementing those hacks, it seems my energy is much, much smoother throughout the day!

@Asayake Would you include Olive Oils in that? It seems the longest living communities eat Olive Oil over any other & in some cases, in abundance. Interesting RE: White Sugar. Do you think you could improve blood sugar levels further if you cut that down / implemented hacks from here - https://nypost.com/2022/04/02/enjoy-carbs-and-lose-weight-with-these-glucose-goddess-hacks/

Appreciate the answers, its all a bit of fun after all and as Michael said I doubt we will change either opinion. I also want to say I am glad you found what works for you & are seeing improvements in all areas that you mentioned on another thread. I certainly agree with the healthspan point, I just don't think we agree on how to get there! In relation to the 5 year point, I'm certainly open to it, and on a longer basis- 10,20 & 30 years if you wish, I meant as an overall community. Personally, based on the data, I view a WFPB diet as optimal for longevity and minimizing risk of chronic disease. You mentioned 13 year carnivore doctor, I could easily mention 10s of 'Vegan Doctors' thriving in their 60s/70s with decades of the diet behind them Also, why would I eat a 1lb/2lbs of meat day when I feel amazing on this diet (and same could be said for you right?) I'm 23 & been Vegan since I was 15, had multiple blood tests (recently one Michal checked over) and all biomarkers are very healthy this included testing for Testosterone which was the US equivalent of 700, which I thought was very good considering all you see online is young guys struggling with low test. I know you mentioned struggling to gain weight while Vegan, I've gone from a scrawny 126lb 15 year old to now 167.5lbs @ 13% Body Fat at 23, with the best results I've seen in the last 18 months when I began training properly, proper nutrition & of course Creatine & EAAS which are more important for WFPB diets. I'll admit I had issues 1-2 years in, but this came from following quacks from old school 2014-2017 vegan youtube, not taking care to reach all micronutrient goals & just a lack of education really. But, since then I've just been feeling better & better Like I said, I understand why you've done what you've done, and I think trying to persuade each other is mostly a waste of time, I'm sharing what's worked for me (health & performance wise) and you are sharing what has worked for you. So, as long as both happy & healthy its all good right? One final thing in regards to Glucose, I eat a shit ton of Carbs, I just meant there's certain hacks to stabilize it throughout the day which I got from the book Glucose Revolution. Shall we agree to set a reminder for a decade from now & see where we're at performance, health & overall wellbeing wise? That will put me at 17 years of eating this way & 10+ for yourself? Full blood test, physique, health, performance etc?

@RendHeaven Firstly, wasn't the lifespan literaly 40 in the 1800s, and likely even shorter before that, couldn't that be one of the reasons? And, most people tended to die from infectious diseases such as TB & things like Pneumonia. So, considering heart attacks average age is 64.5, is it not just a matter of it takes longer for these habits to have an effect on the CV system and lead to CV disease, which is the number 1 killer in the developed world according to WHO. Same for Lifestyle causes cancers- its very rarely a 18 year old smoker getting lung cancer for example? Also, the studies / reports of the 'Bluezones' and populations who live the longest do seem to eat a very plant rich diet, low in all forms of processed foods of course, but also low in Red Meat - https://www.bluezones.com/recipes/food-guidelines/ . To me, it makes much more sense to look at what people have done recently to increase lifespan, than a time period where the causes of death were completely different, like night and day difference, due to living standards etc Also, isn't pure survival completely different to optimizing yourself for not just a longer lifespan but healthspan? In terms of the benefits you've seen, this is incredibly common, especially if you had food sensitivities / insulin sensitivities beforehand & you've basically done an elimination carnivore-based diet, meaning you've stripped anything that can cause issues. Long-Term I would argue such a diet will increase the risk of various chronic diseases, and I think within the next 3-5 years we will see much more evidence of this in Carnivore based communities. One more thing, if you were eating a lot of carb heavy meals before, especially processed carbs, that could explain the benefits, I just finished a book called Glucose Revolution and after implementing the hacks have seen great improvement in just a week. Essentially if you was constantly snacking or eating lots of processed carbs / carb heavy meals in a certain way you could've just fucked your glucose & insulin sensitivity which leads to a lot of shit outcomes basically. I think this could partially explain the benefits seen on a high fat based diet.

@Nilsi This is the most common thing I've seen with carnivore / high red meat diets. You are literally removing any food you had sensitivities with & temporarily starving the body of them. But, long term fucking up your heart & digestion, not to mention increasing the risk of basically every chronic disease out there Feeling amazing for short period > decades of research on what people who actually lived to 100 do. I just don't understand this thinking. I'm not saying small amounts of animal products can't be healthy, they defo can. But, one thing the majority of the nutrition world agree on except this corner is that lots of red meat will lead to increased risk of heart issues. Not even just read meat but Sat Fat from foods like Coconut oil which was hounded as a superfood for a while. Also, why does it have to be one or the other, why can't it be a balance of all Macros / Micros slightly adjusted for individual goals. I think one of the biggest issues with Socials is people like Liver King who jack themselves up with $15k+/ monthly PEDs then spend millions on one of the greatest Social Media Marketing campaigns are what people are easily influenced by. The guys actually going by the data and who look 'normal' will never garner that attention, sure its partly their fault for marketing poorly, but algorithms push what gets clicks, and that's extreme content. It was similar in 2014-2017 when the extreme raw vegans were getting the attention with the whole HCLF push that caused a shit tonne of problems.

I'm actually reading a book called 'Glucose Revolution' about this and I don't think its as simple as your making out from what the science shows Essentially any sugar / starches / carbs (including fruit) causes the biggest glucose spikes, which is where the issues come in when people do this multiple times a day. She's not saying to eat fruit / carbs but just doing it in the best way for digestive health and maintaining a stable glucose throughout the day Which is to start meals with the Fibre (veggies), then fats / protein & finish with carbs where possible, or have some kind of Fibre based starter like a salad. Fruit / Sweet treats should be Dessert as this causes less of a spike, and not as snacks throughout the day. And, you can even add in movement after a meal to lessen the spike. Also, its kind of ironic I've been adding in the green starters before Morning Oats etc and you defo feel a lot fuller & have more sustained energy I think a lot of things are a lot more nuanced, but a lot of people like black & white, especially with things like Nutrition & Exercise

@King Merk I've seen Carnivore work very well as a short-term elimination diet for people with issues similar to yours. However, from the long term RCTs & Meta-Analysis its pretty clear eating a High Sat Fat animal based diet increases the risk of several chronic diseases such as Heart Disease, not to mention the lack of Fibre issue. (Colon cancer risk) Have you ever done a test to see if you have underlying gut issues or certain sensitivities that was causing the issues? Also, to be honest I think a lot of plant based diets aren't prepared sufficiently, so that could've been an issue. It takes a lot of effort- 40+ plants a week, making sure the 8 nutrients of focus are taken care of etc- not to mention the wide array of Vegan junk that is available now I know there's a lot of Anecdotes that point both ways to feeling better, removing xyz, but there's a reason anecdotes are regarded the lowest form of scientific proof & RCTs / Meta Analysis are regarded as the best

Haha, I never expected to come on here and see Leo talking about football Yeah, this is the weirdest & most corrupt world cup ever, considering the guys who accepted the bribes from Qatar originally went to prison, that set the precedent. But, it also raises the question, how many people would accept a 20-30 Million bribe & sell their soul so to speak? I think a lot more than we think. Honestly though, what do you think the solution is to things like this? Because, this WC is a highlighted event, we see it. Yet, countless human rights violations & horrific work conditions are occurring globally right this second, but because it isn't for a major sporting event, its not highlighted. This is not to downplay the seriousness of corruption that went into this, but it started with FIFA actually accepting the bribes to give a country not fit to host, the world cup... However, its still coming home...or it'll be 60 years since it last has.

Just received blood tests back after 7 1/2 years vegan. For reference I drink alcohol socially, don't smoke & have a history of type 2 diabetes in my family (mum & grandad). As far as I'm aware there's no real history of heart disease, but certainly is of cancer, but sadly, these days that seems very normal. @Michael569 Is going to analyse them for me (HIGHLY recommend working with him!!), as there was 1 slightly concerning reading, then if he approves I will post them here & re-post again in 6-12 months as I only read this book this month, and have certainly slacked on the WFPB in certain areas!