silene

Perceiver and perceived are, to borrow Buddhist terminology, a mutually arising pair, like all dualities. They don't exist separately. But it arises within the cognitive process of the mind, it's simply not there in the original appearance (perception). It's the same with self/other, subject/object, mind/matter. I'd say our spiritual practice is helping us find the difference between original appearance (suchness) and processed cognition (map): this happens so fast we normally conflate them and think reality really is twoness. But with practice (unless we're especially gifted), we can dwell in the primal suchness for a while, at least until our survival needs kick in, and duality arises again. That's rebirth.

@EntheogenTruthSeeker much love and hopefully I'll keep up with you on your yt channel. I know what you mean, this forum is strictly moderated to comply with Leo's approach. It is what it is. I already belong to several other forums alongside this one to get a broader community.

The UK tax system for instance is highly complicated and the govt has been trying for years to simplify it, without success so far. It means you need an army of expensive accountants and tax inspectors, lawyers, auditors etc as ordinary business people can't understand it.

I try and find a posture that's a mixture of comfortable for the meditation period (tho mine are usually limited to 30 mins); and stable so I've got a straight spine and don't wobble. I find the Burmese position works for me, but there's been a lot of experimenting. I also have a lot of padding to sit on, my hips are higher than my knees. Plus a folded up blanket under that so my knees are on a soft surface.

@Rilles @Preety_India You're both perfectly right of course. In fact the US is already set up as a decentralised sort of compromise. The "state" is all the individual states, and the federal centre is the Union of states, a bit like the UK and the EU. So one solution is to see that the US is already a collection of nationalities, of countries, which share some functions through the centre. A bit like a congregational rather than an episcopal church. We can tweak the relationship between states and union by more devolution, or more centralisation, through regular referendums. As a western european, I certainly recognise this issue of majority local neighbourhoods, vs a postmodern cultural mashup (aka multiculturalism) with supporters and opponents of both. We've got an uneasy compromise which may not last forever, it's under pressure at the moment. Added to this is the money factor, most people are willing to accept a cultural dissonance if they've got a good job, nice home etc. I.e. as long as capitalism continues to deliver the goods, we're likely to turn a blind eye to the identity politics behind this. Segregation has a very unfortunate history though, as the separated groups end up seeking money and power for themselves, and you need to end up policing the borders created.

This is like turning back the clock and changing the result of the civil war. The Russians and Chinese would love for the US (or the EU for that matter) to split up and reduce their superpower status. And to damage the idea of multiculturalism where we can live together despite our differences. Where next, for conservative religions, racial groups to get their own parts? It doesn't bode well for all the other divided regions like Israel/Palestine, former Yugoslavia, the partitioned India, Northern Ireland. On the other hand, maybe the whole world should split into two, between people who embrace diversity and those who want stage blue cultural enclaves.

@VeganAwake I think it's the difference in our language which is tripping me up rather than a substantial disagreement. I'd just add that illusions aren't completely unreal, they're a mixture of actual stimulus + imaginary interpretation of the stimulus. Eg A mirage is made of real light (true) + our cognition that the light represents water (false). Or a magician playing with actual cards, creates a false belief in our minds. I think something analogous is occurring with the sense of self.

By coincidence (I hope!) this came up on my youtube feed today, an explanation of nothing vs something

@VeganAwake I'm using me / we as figures of speech, not as a belief they're real. I don't even know what 'real' means anyway. I'm confused, does something happen or not? If the seeking illusion falls away that's just another way of saying that the belief in a separate individual ends. I was wondering if this can fully happen during our human lifetime, or only after death/mahasamadhi. Or does the mind need to retain a smidgen of seeking to stay alive? Not sure who this is aimed at, but here's my tuppence. Why should it be "rather than"? Why not both, or even neither?

From the Buddhist pov, it doesn't say that everything or the whole of existence is impermanent anyway. Just 'conditioned phenomena' are impermanent (however you end up defining that). So it leaves space for an unconditioned existence, presumably nirvana, which is something else (like permanent, or neither permanent nor impermanent).

@Tim R so it's like, forgetting the infinite is the price we pay for knowing distinctions, having an identity with experiences (apparently). But then however many experiences the apparent individual enjoys (or hates) we always sense there's something more, something deeper - like the infinite is calling us back. But we think we can have our cake and eat it, be an enlightened individual with a foot in both camps. Is that possible or do we need to wait for mahasamadhi to completely end the illusion, return to the source, be infinite. Is it possible while we're still alive or do we need to retain some wisp of distinction, of ignorance?

@WokeBloke Have you found a 'ground' of being? I haven't myself. I get to a self-referencing paradox along the lines of; if everything is changeable, that should include the idea that "everything is changeable". The truth of change must itself change, and become untrue!

@WokeBloke If there is a seer (as you seem to believe), how would you know, as in getting evidence (rather than just using theoretical logic)? Do you also need a knower to know the seer? But how do you know there's a knower, can you find the knower? Who finds the knower of the seer of the seen? Unless maybe all of these are one? It's worth watching Leo's video on paradox if you haven't already, to contemplate the strange loop you are entering into .... good luck, it's a great contemplation to do (aka self-inquiry)

@VeganAwake @The0Self I guess at some point we need to arrive at the realisation of things "just happening" otherwise we've got an infinite regression of who's doing it, who controls the controller?

I loved it too, but dropping out didn't pay the bills so I got a job instead

So how does the feeling of intention fit with this? Some actions feel intended or willed, like moving my arm, and others not like beating my heart. It could be this feeling of intention which is a precursor to thoughts of a separate self.

Yes, we are where we are and can't go back to the pre-colonial era. My takeaways from this are: We need to focus on building better societies for the current generations alive now, equal rights and opportunities. We need good international laws to delineate what the national & tribal boundaries are, with an enforcement by the international community which isn't just the super powers steamrollering with their biased version of peace keeping. Historical stories still need telling and researching. Bearing in mind that there's no unbiased history, so we also need educating in meta-history, the skill of reading between the lines and making biases explicit. People are all a mixture of good and bad in any culture, relative to their power and technology. So if I have any guilt, it's for being an unenlightened human in general rather than for having any particular ancestry. But that's completely unhelpful. This is all highly idealistic of course! Looking at the hotspots of trouble nowadays, like the middle east, creating fair society is not only a tough challenge, but requires much spiritual development, and can't be imposed from without except as a sticking plaster over the systemic problems.

@ted73104 you make some great points. Although depression may have multiple sources. I watched this video today by a psychologist who has a list of causes. One of his ideas is to look forward to a future which can be changed, rather than spend too much time dwelling in a past which can't.

@Flowerfaeiry Nothing like that, violence is only justified in self-defence. The map appears to be drawn from a perspective of lands colonised by Europeans during a particular historical period. It implies the 'settler' communities don't yet feel themselves native to their own country after 500 years or so, and I'm musing aloud around the implied sense of alienation and detachment from the land. I'm English and have only traced our family tree back to the 17th C so have no idea where we came from before that. I can't call myself Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Celtic, Caucasian etc unless perhaps I go for DNA testing but what would that do as our old tribes were long ago absorbed into other identities (apart from the Scottish lol). But even with only 400 years of history I can say I feel native. Probably I would without that too. What about all the other more recent immigrants and their descendants here, I'm curious to explore how native and rooted they feel as well. I'm also sympathetic to earlier replies in this thread about violence and guilt. Eg if a native tribe has claims to a territory, they'd need to demonstrate that they settled there peacefully rather than conquering an earlier tribe. We can't have different moral values for different peoples, or can we? What if we discovered that many of the long-time tribes are also guilty of imperialism like the Europeans? A case in point could be the Zulus in South Africa. We know about the European invasion and colonisation there, the Zulu wars of the late 19th C etc. But when I was learning about this, my book went further back into the history of the Zulu tribe, which revealed that a couple of centuries before the European imperialism, the Zulus started off as a small tribe who went to war and conquered their neighbours with their famous buffalo horn tactics, absorbing the defeated tribes into their empire and identity. Then the British came along from much further away to invade, does that make a moral difference?

@Illusory Self what would you say are the pros and cons in your experience? Also, how long were you on the anti-depressents for? For me it was about 6 months, then I came off them and haven't needed them again (touch wood!).

They worked for me (although with some side effects). I guess it's an individual thing.

How long do you need to live somewhere to become a native, indigenous?

Thoughts of separate me are useful for survival and procreation of ... bodies & minds which have thoughts of separate me. It's a loop without a separate meaning.

But this already the case, tax on cigarettes and other tobacco products has been so high for so long it's created a black market in smuggling. There's no point increasing the tax any more as it will simply improve the business model of the smuggling gangs. Same with alcohol to a lesser extent. In the UK we also have a sugar tax to provide extra funding for the additional heathcare requirements, as well as deterrence for unhealthy lifestyles. Nanny state, carrot and stick?

I can relate to your doubts about meditation, I'm sure you're not alone as a beginner learning by yourself and wondering which way to turn with the huge volume of teachings available now, especially online. When I was starting out I was more involved in face to face groups and retreats where doubts and problems can be discussed in person. If that's not an option for you, how about looking for a forum or online group which practice the technique(s) you're doing? I've never gelled with affirmations and visualisations myself so don't have the experience to advise about them. That's also quite a dilemma whether to leave school or stay till you finish. Dropping out without a vision and a plan is a risk and you may face a reaction from family. If you know what you want then a straight transfer might be possible ... if the school has some student support or counsellors then you could take advantage to talk through what you want / don't want and many folks find journalling helpful. Nahm has a great thread on creating a dream board / vision board, many here have used that too. https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/41824-the-path-living-the-dream-board/ Finally, you're not alone in this. Many people find their first choice of life path isn't working out and have a change in direction (me too!). Don't judge yourself or feel bad about it. Knowing yourself is just as important as knowing the external knowledge to get on in life. Good luck man.