Thought Art

I am learning French right now. I agree that exposure to the words and in sentences is important. I am also exposed to French all day at work, though I don’t understand it I think it’s good I am exposed to it all day. I am using Duolingo and an App called speak to practice. I like the app Speak because it uses AI and is focused on speaking the words out loud in sentences and in useful contexts. It uses an AI too so you can practice speaking to it. It also has good lessons. I’m enjoying the combination of apps because they provide different exercises. Duolingo is good too for the variety of written, hearing, speaking and newly added AI conversation features. Vocabulary is part of the language but, especially for French it isn’t enough because of French conjugations and masculine feminine. For some languages perhaps vocabulary is very useful especially going from English to Dutch as they are pretty similar. For me, my relationship to phonetics was for being able to read and write a language I could already speak and understand verbally at a high level of comprehension. I just didn’t understand how to decode it. @Elliott Has helped me make some high quality distinctions with regards to various aspects of reading comprehension , etc…I apologize for losing my cool and I’ve edited my posts to be more respectful if you read them. My learning of English reading and writing includes phonetics (for me a huge game changer in my reading) among other methods.

Haha, do you listen to his videos? I wouldn’t say his concepts are shallow at all…

@Elliott As I read through your article it is eye opening but also question raising. I am fine with comprehension being something which phonetics doesn’t directly help. However, I have questions about what the UK implementation of phonetics looks like and how it compares to Lindamood. But, in terms of actually being able to read the words so one can use their own comprehension abilities…. I’d say it helps. The substack article you share is very interesting and I agree with the person writing it. It doesn’t deny that phonetics is a useful aspect of learning at all. But, that phonics alone isn’t enough for literacy and comprehension which seems very likely. Also, it’s hard to say when reading this article what really going on in the class rooms, what they refer to as phonics/ phonetics too. If all that’s being improved is “non-word reading” for example, I highly suspect the phonics and approach used is not my system. I wonder if I did that “nonword reading” in Lindamood. I don’t recall it. But, Linda mood did help with decoding words while reading but also from hearing the word itself. There are so many variables at play here. We can’t just take phonics and how it’s been implemented in some systems or class rooms and know. It is very fuzzy, and you can’t draw a strong conclusion even from this seemingly well written article. More research is likely needed because, “phonics” doesn’t reveal the whole implementation or variety of potential pedagogical methods that could exist and which have been implemented …. This is a highly complex subject. He does state the phonics helps with Decoding. Which for me was huge. But, not comprehension. Which makes sense to me as comprehension requires deeper levels of human intelligence which is outside of the scope of what phonetics would provide. For me, learning how to read and decode and sound out words was the missing link. Here is the research of Lindamood. https://lindamoodbell.com/research

@Leo Gura Sure, I don’t know if every kid can afford tutoring and if this system works in a chaotic classroom. I can’t speak for wide systematic implementation of Linda Mood. Also, my own intelligence and massive jump in reading score is probably rare as I had some genius level aptitudes. I am open to that. There is research around Lindamood people can look at themselves. I personally could not learn in a classroom. I admit this is partly due to an inability to focus and listen to instruction due to over stimulation the other children and sounds, smells etc. in tutoring I was able to deeply dive into the phonic/ phonetically science and structure of the English language. This allowed me to be able to read any word I saw without memorization and to spell words just by hearing them. In what fucking world would not actually learning how a language work be a good thing? In what world would learning how words work be “cheating”? But, learning how words actually work… is effective rather than than retard level word memorization of most humans. - Once I learned to process speech sounds properly, reading stopped being about memorizing words and became automatic — which is why my assessed reading level jumped years ahead. - AI

@Elliott I also learned a specific SYSTEM. Lindamood. This is important because there are likely many approaches to phonics/ phonetics. Anyone calling a specific system of learning “cheating” is a limited perspective. Learning is learning. I know for a fact the system of phonetics changed the lives for me and my family. And, this system has not been implemented at all wide scale in schools. Learning phonetics brought me to a near university level reading comprehension by grade 6. I have the tests reports from when I was tested. I was tested by the school, or some third party. Why? BECAUSE it actually taught me how English works for reading and writing the fucking words. Memorizing words is for retards who didn’t learn how English works.

@Elliott The whole point of this thread is that research shows the importance of phonetics in learning English. So, why are you arguing with me here? It’s really silly. I’ve provided my own experience and that of my family. The OP has also provided videos showing this is the consensus of experts. Man, it’s like how many times am I gonna explain this to you? It doesn’t take that long to learn for kids and it makes reading a million times easier. Plus, what you say is silly because there is I’m pretty sure a literacy epidemic taking place. Of course distraction and laziness is a core part of it… but it’s also because the current system fucking sucks at teaching kids to read and write…. Because they don’t teach phonetics. So, you may not be able to add 3 months to the year…. But when a grade 5 teacher has half her class with a grade 2 reading level you’ve wasted 3-5 years!!!! So what the fuck?

@Elliott I only practiced it once a week for an hour for 2 years with my tutor. It actually taught me to read and write. I learned it after school…. So no. For me, it wasn’t helpful. It’s how I learned to read and write. It was a relatively small investment of time. Without this I wouldn’t have learned to read. I went from being behind my classmates to in front of them. It really would change kids lives if taught early on and accelerate the learning of kids going forward making each year of schooling more powerful. Phonetics is how to actually read and write. I can’t convince you if I haven’t already. You don’t know what phonetics is ultimately. It would make vocabulary and reading assignments more effective.

@ExploringReality Yeah…. I’ve never done that symmetric yoga thing Martin does. It’s part of his own thing. I tend to look at my hands a lot though. I am still personally baffled by the 5meodmt experience.

@Oliver Wright Play with fire you get burned…. No one recommends taking that much. How to ruin your life 101. Can’t blame psychedelics here only your own stupid choices. Your lack of remorse for your actions is disturbing. Endangering yourself is not cool! “Honestly I Enjoyed it” Yeah you enjoyed almost hurting yourself, harassing and assaulting others and giving psychedelics a bad reputation. GROW UP!!

@Husseinisdoingfine The quality of Wikipedia is strong now. It has peer review at the core of the development of Wikipedia pages.

@Elliott The way your mind is grasping this is very interesting to me.

@Elliott No, phonetics is taught holistically. Sound, mouth shape, air shape, and letter(s) (image). It makes writing, spelling, and reading better. Phonetics is not incorrect. Written english is based on phonetics of our language. Phonetics is the correct way of understanding the language. Phonetics does not impede someone’s ability to read/ write and make sense of the meaning of the sentences. It actually makes it better. For me reading and writing contain many simultaneous processes.

They did touch on it. But not in the depth and focus I learned it with my tutor. I’ve shared the system I used in this thread. I did not learn this at school. We of course learn the sounds of letters, and things. But, not to the degree of how I learned in tutoring. I recall their being an emphasis on sight reading over phonetics. That is why my tutor actually quit being a teaching to then teach phonetics. I gotta go though! I may have to ban myself for the rest of the week to focus.

@Elliott Yes, it’s important to recall that learning a language comes in many forms and types of learning. This doesn’t negate that English is a phonetic system. It may have similar sounding words, and the occasional exception. But, by and large it’s a phonetic system with rules on how words are spelled and how they sound. Learning that helps you learn English to a higher level. You can’t “decode it” alone with phonetics. But phonetics offers a high degree of fluency to those who learn it, in combination with other forms of learning.

Did I memorize the Alphabet? Did I memorize the phonetics? Did I memorize similar sounding words? Sure. Memory is part of learning. Learning phonetics of English offers a higher degree of literacy than just memorizing how words are spelt. The letters in English all make unique sounds, and there are certain combination of letters than make sounds. By learning these you can read most words and spell most words by hearing. English isn’t random… it’s a phonetic system.

Not brute memory. As I can apply the aspects I’ve memorized and phonetics. Learning is more complicated than any single system. This is what Leo is teaching right now with his current video series. So instead of trying to prove I don’t memorize as all you should assume I’ve learned my language through a variety of ways including aspects of memorizing, phonetics, etc…. Different aspects of language make use of different aspects of intelligence. So, do I remember that deer and dear are spelled differently though memory? Well yes. But, I also memorize the phonetic rules too. But, I don’t take time looking up words and memorizing how they are spelt 99% of the time because… I did not learn to read and write like that. And, I’m a native English speaker. So phonetics wasn’t how I learned English but how I learned to read and write my own language. My own language which is a phonetic system… which doesn’t require gross memorizing as it was designed phonetically.

@Elliott Generally, yes with a high degree of accuracy. I can’t recall memorizing words very often, as I did not learn to read and write that way. Also, I am a native English speaker and could speak English before I could read and write it.

@Elliott After knowing English for decades I have of course the requisite variety to memorize words… but, when I type out sentences I am sounding things out words phonetically in my head. If you can learn to write a sentence you can learn the logic within human words. Okay! Enough of the Forum today. If phonetics are interesting to you I’m sure you can study it in more depth. Peace

@Elliott I would assume I can write at a university level as I have done so in the past. This isn’t about me, but phonetics.

@Elliott context. Some words sound the same. That doesn’t disprove phonetics hahaha. All those words still follow English phonetic logic. Context is important in all languages that have more than one word with the same sound. In spelling contests it’s common to ask for the word to be used in a sentence.

@Elliott No, you can use phonetics while reading. It’s taught to kids to learn to read and write. I as I write and read am always using phonetics. I sound out my words as I write to you phonetics brought me from a grade 1 reading level to a grade 12 reading level after 2 years of tutoring when I was in grade 5. It’s not cheating it’s actually reading English. English is a phonetic language. Whether you are reading writing it’s the same phonetic system. By learning phonetics you learn to spell and read words. Of course grammar and definitions are largest aspects of grasping the whole language.

@DocWatts Perhaps not essential as I suspect many adults can’t… but it’s very very powerful.

@Elliott If you are able to sound out every single word while reading a book with many words you’ve never seen before it makes it a lot easier because you can sound out the word, and keep reading for deeper context. Being able to read every words makes things way easier. When I speak of phonetics I also speak of the spelling of the word instead of the memorizing of words. This means for example a word with “ology” you could know it’s a study of something. But, the main skill in learning phonetics is being able to spell any word you hear with high accuracy and being able to read and sound out every word. This is a more robust and complete form of reading and writing.

No, they need not be in your library. With phonetics you could sound out and pronounce all his words he shared without knowing the word prior or even its meaning.

I wasn’t claiming with phonetics alone you can know what every words means. But you can sound it out, and if a word uses root words or other patterns it’s easier to recognize them making it easier to know what it means. Obviously, like I’ve shared definitions are important especially for these rare words.