Thought Art

Kakorrhaphiophobia I don’t know what this mean, but I assume it’s a kind of phobia. Why? Because I learned to break words up when I can to sound out root words. In that way, phonetics helps you begin to comprehend words meanings. I’ve never claimed 100% understanding of a word! Unless you know it already. phobia - some kind of fear gian - is a suffix for a person from somewhere topia - place or state Ulate - to cause… etc You can use the endings of words and the sounds, and typical usage of the endings to gain insight into the word. As part of the phonetics I learn the meaning of these endings too.

@Elliott Exactly. Things I’ve said are true. With allowance for nuance. You can straw man me if you want. But that limits your understanding of what I’ve said. You have helped me explore this area and I’m sure my mind will continue to learn more.

@Elliott Also, I am not a victim. I’m calling you a dick.

@Elliott It did make breakthrough for my reading. I am open to expanding the nuances of the learning process however, like I’ve said above speaking to you has helped me make some finer distinctions. I’ve also stated many times before I’m aware of many different aspects of learning. I am by no means boiling all my understanding of English to a single facet or aspect of learning a language, ie phonetics. For me, phonetics was huge for me, in reading and writing a language I already could speak and had a high comprehension of. So, based on this I’ve come to understand important nuances and limitations of phonetics in learning a language. That being said, phonetics is important. As the article you shared states, as part of a more holistic and balanced approach. It doesn’t predict comprehension, etc and I’m fine with that. For me, the phonetic piece of the puzzle opened a door way where I was no longer impeded by not being able to read, or at least sound out words and gain its meaning through the text I am reading. There are aspects if learning phonetics that did help with word meaning in some context… for example "ing" being an action, or "ed" meaning past tense depending on context. So instead assuming you know what I meant and trying to debunk me maybe seek more clarity. I think the OP posted the core issue and point was sight reading vs Phonetic understanding. At that level I stand phonetic is better. But, for larger understanding of complete literacy I was not speaking about. For comprehension and deeper levels of understanding I’m open to learning more about the reality around that. Being able to actually read and write helps with comprehension is kind of obvious as a starter.

@Elliott They sound extremely similar. Because we know this history of our language. Many English words are literally from French. It is one of the things that makes French easier to learn is the phonetic similarities. Is it hard proof and conclusive you know what it means? Nope. But, the phonetic similarities of the languages given French shaped modern English is useful to learners. Can’t know 100%, but that wasn’t my fucking claim. My claim is it helps make learning French easier. Which it does. Stop being a dick. You misconstrue what I say and it’s very annoying.

Bro, I’m not understanding the whole fucking language. Lot’s of English words come from French. Those words I can understand based on the phonetics. Common fucking sense. Stop being a dick. Any idea what this word in French means? ”Musique”? Arts / Entertainment: Musique → Music Danse → Dance Poésie → Poetry Théâtre → Theater Ballet → Ballet Chanson → Song (sometimes “chanson” in English contexts) Everyday / Objects: Table → Table Porte → Port (as in airport) Livre → Library / Livre (book in French, but “livre” influenced “library”) Maison → Mansion (originally “maison” = house) Food / Culinary: Pain → Pan (bread) Fromage → Fromage (cheese; English sometimes borrows the term for fancy menus) Vin → Wine Café → Café Abstract / Concepts: Raison → Reason Lumière → Light / Illumination Nature → Nature Vérité → Verity (truth) Armée → Army Justice → Justice Science / Learning: École → School (from Latin schola, via French) Université → University Histoire → History Philosophie → Philosophy Société → Society Other common words: Famille → Family Route → Route Minute → Minute Important → Important Chatgpt gave these shitty examples

Jehovah’s Witness don’t believe Christ is God. Are they not Christian?

Pursue what you find meaningful!

Spend 20 years studying the psychology of an ass cramp.

@Elliott My understanding of phonetics does make reading French easier. Even though it’s different the fact that I understand words as a grouping a building blocks which creates different sounds really helps. It makes understanding conjugations easier. I however, do not think phonetics exists on an island. It’s just part of learning. Also, French and English share a lot of words so… in a way phonetics DO help with meaning in this context. Interesting nuance. But, whole words could help here two because the words not only sound similar but look similar.

Whyyyyyy. I don’t know what you mean by funny that also isn’t making fun of how I mentioned Chinese psychology (reffering to their traditional ontology of mind). Yes, I think what I assume you mean by monkey psychology is important too. Also, mental illness, and environmental elements like heavy metals, etc…

@Schizophonia My end goal is Québécois, but the apps teach international French.

Do you mean monkeys and apes? Because I think Monkeys are different no? You have a book on your reading list I think.

@Leo Gura

@Leo Gura Why u do this. What u mean? I read Chinese psychology and Qigong books. Chinese view on psychology merges psychology and physiology in an interesting way. It’s very strange for me and challenging epistemic and ontological exercise. I am not talking about 5 element theory. There is more to it… It is helping with my meditation practice as well. I’m working on integrating these psychologies in my self. Chinese psychology is what I keep thinking and coming back to when I listen to your deconstructing rationality series.

@Vali2003 I liked reading over your analysis. She generally is coming from a higher perspective and I found her video helped me to dovetail and contrast with Leo’s recently video series. I think I would add some things where she may be wrong 1. She is wrong to completely disregard lived experience and qualitative experience in psychology. She is wrong to only use formalized and rational, empirical data. She is trying to create a walled garden to protect her psychology from the pitfalls and nebulosity she so well explains on how post modern, feminist, lefty type ideologies corrupt psychology. On one hand she is right to do this because psychology should be able to measure the results of their approaches. Some outcomes should be considered better than others when working with patients. Therefore having measurable criteria is crucial. But, she is wrong because by doing so she limits her ability to understand consciousness and mind because in reality they are nebulous and cannot be formalized….. listening to her and the challenges psychology faces made me realize how difficult it would be for psychology to tango with Leo’s Deconstructing Rationality series. 2. I question her disregard for self esteem in well being and wonder exactly the movement she referred too. I doubt it is the self esteem taught by Nathanial Brandon as she referred to artificially boosting self esteem which is not what Nathanial Brandon teaches… I have much to learn… I would hesitate to say whether she is above or below. But, she offers a strong critique of ideological corruptions in her field, and the challenges of the scientific legitimacy of psychology when distorted by ideology and a lack of empiricism and standard of efficacy. This is challenging! I think there is room for many branches and fields in psychology which may benefit from different types of research, types of evidence, practices, purposes, etc… I don’t think all psychology should be empirical and that qualitative research has value as well. I think a robust psychology should be rooted first and foremost in a non-ideological and holistic lens. Actually, Integral meta theory probably the correct map for understanding psychology, plus psychedelics, Chinese psychology/ physiology, yogic sciences and western somatics.

Upon further research I don’t think it was the Lindamood system. It just doesn’t look familiar to me. I wonder what it was….

I am learning French right now. I agree that exposure to the words and in sentences is important. I am also exposed to French all day at work, though I don’t understand it I think it’s good I am exposed to it all day. I am using Duolingo and an App called speak to practice. I like the app Speak because it uses AI and is focused on speaking the words out loud in sentences and in useful contexts. It uses an AI too so you can practice speaking to it. It also has good lessons. I’m enjoying the combination of apps because they provide different exercises. Duolingo is good too for the variety of written, hearing, speaking and newly added AI conversation features. Vocabulary is part of the language but, especially for French it isn’t enough because of French conjugations and masculine feminine. For some languages perhaps vocabulary is very useful especially going from English to Dutch as they are pretty similar. For me, my relationship to phonetics was for being able to read and write a language I could already speak and understand verbally at a high level of comprehension. I just didn’t understand how to decode it. @Elliott Has helped me make some high quality distinctions with regards to various aspects of reading comprehension , etc…I apologize for losing my cool and I’ve edited my posts to be more respectful if you read them. My learning of English reading and writing includes phonetics (for me a huge game changer in my reading) among other methods.

Haha, do you listen to his videos? I wouldn’t say his concepts are shallow at all…

@Elliott As I read through your article it is eye opening but also question raising. I am fine with comprehension being something which phonetics doesn’t directly help. However, I have questions about what the UK implementation of phonetics looks like and how it compares to Lindamood. But, in terms of actually being able to read the words so one can use their own comprehension abilities…. I’d say it helps. The substack article you share is very interesting and I agree with the person writing it. It doesn’t deny that phonetics is a useful aspect of learning at all. But, that phonics alone isn’t enough for literacy and comprehension which seems very likely. Also, it’s hard to say when reading this article what really going on in the class rooms, what they refer to as phonics/ phonetics too. If all that’s being improved is “non-word reading” for example, I highly suspect the phonics and approach used is not my system. I wonder if I did that “nonword reading” in Lindamood. I don’t recall it. But, Linda mood did help with decoding words while reading but also from hearing the word itself. There are so many variables at play here. We can’t just take phonics and how it’s been implemented in some systems or class rooms and know. It is very fuzzy, and you can’t draw a strong conclusion even from this seemingly well written article. More research is likely needed because, “phonics” doesn’t reveal the whole implementation or variety of potential pedagogical methods that could exist and which have been implemented …. This is a highly complex subject. He does state the phonics helps with Decoding. Which for me was huge. But, not comprehension. Which makes sense to me as comprehension requires deeper levels of human intelligence which is outside of the scope of what phonetics would provide. For me, learning how to read and decode and sound out words was the missing link. Here is the research of Lindamood. https://lindamoodbell.com/research

@Leo Gura Sure, I don’t know if every kid can afford tutoring and if this system works in a chaotic classroom. I can’t speak for wide systematic implementation of Linda Mood. Also, my own intelligence and massive jump in reading score is probably rare as I had some genius level aptitudes. I am open to that. There is research around Lindamood people can look at themselves. I personally could not learn in a classroom. I admit this is partly due to an inability to focus and listen to instruction due to over stimulation the other children and sounds, smells etc. in tutoring I was able to deeply dive into the phonic/ phonetically science and structure of the English language. This allowed me to be able to read any word I saw without memorization and to spell words just by hearing them. In what fucking world would not actually learning how a language work be a good thing? In what world would learning how words work be “cheating”? But, learning how words actually work… is effective rather than than retard level word memorization of most humans. - Once I learned to process speech sounds properly, reading stopped being about memorizing words and became automatic — which is why my assessed reading level jumped years ahead. - AI

@Elliott I also learned a specific SYSTEM. Lindamood. This is important because there are likely many approaches to phonics/ phonetics. Anyone calling a specific system of learning “cheating” is a limited perspective. Learning is learning. I know for a fact the system of phonetics changed the lives for me and my family. And, this system has not been implemented at all wide scale in schools. Learning phonetics brought me to a near university level reading comprehension by grade 6. I have the tests reports from when I was tested. I was tested by the school, or some third party. Why? BECAUSE it actually taught me how English works for reading and writing the fucking words. Memorizing words is for retards who didn’t learn how English works.

@Elliott The whole point of this thread is that research shows the importance of phonetics in learning English. So, why are you arguing with me here? It’s really silly. I’ve provided my own experience and that of my family. The OP has also provided videos showing this is the consensus of experts. Man, it’s like how many times am I gonna explain this to you? It doesn’t take that long to learn for kids and it makes reading a million times easier. Plus, what you say is silly because there is I’m pretty sure a literacy epidemic taking place. Of course distraction and laziness is a core part of it… but it’s also because the current system fucking sucks at teaching kids to read and write…. Because they don’t teach phonetics. So, you may not be able to add 3 months to the year…. But when a grade 5 teacher has half her class with a grade 2 reading level you’ve wasted 3-5 years!!!! So what the fuck?

@Elliott I only practiced it once a week for an hour for 2 years with my tutor. It actually taught me to read and write. I learned it after school…. So no. For me, it wasn’t helpful. It’s how I learned to read and write. It was a relatively small investment of time. Without this I wouldn’t have learned to read. I went from being behind my classmates to in front of them. It really would change kids lives if taught early on and accelerate the learning of kids going forward making each year of schooling more powerful. Phonetics is how to actually read and write. I can’t convince you if I haven’t already. You don’t know what phonetics is ultimately. It would make vocabulary and reading assignments more effective.

@ExploringReality Yeah…. I’ve never done that symmetric yoga thing Martin does. It’s part of his own thing. I tend to look at my hands a lot though. I am still personally baffled by the 5meodmt experience.