Lento

Then why are we even communicating? Why do teachers exist? Why does research exist? We clearly should just shut schools and universities and this forum down. Reality is not only understood through direct experience. Perhaps you should expand your concept of understanding. To me, understanding is a symbolic/metaphorical thing. It happens through symbols/metaphors. If you are talking about being, then your concept of understanding is different than mine. To me, being cannot be understood. It can only be. For an understanding to occur, a symbol/metaphor has to get created in "the mind". Instead of throwing out phrases like these, how about attempting to explain your point of view like I did? How do you know that I don't know how strong the mind is? You're just assuming things about me. ......... Fair enough, and same here by the way. I don't equate direct experience with proper understanding. You can directly experience whatever you want and still misinterpret and misunderstand it. We all experience the sunrise and the sunset. Most people think that the earth is round, and some people think that the earth is flat. Does either of them actually know? Or do they both rely on their "understanding"?

You are wrong about me. It's not your job to evaluate my understanding, openness, or willingness to expand. Please focus on the discussion or let it go. The discussion is not about me. It's about my opinions on psychedelics. If you have anything else to say besides "direct experience", then be my guest. If you don't, then you're just repeating yourself. You probably know that direct experience is not the only way for understanding reality. These are just assumptions projected onto me. I will gladly dismiss them.

I feel numb on the inside. I feel like I don't even exist. I don't feel emotions except the minimum. Yesterday, I went and meditated while walking for 2 hours and a half. I went to a lot of the places that I used to have an emotional connection with in the past. I felt nothing. I visited parts of the town where I used to live in earlier and where I have a lot of memories of. I felt nothing. I went to a park; On the way in, I saw a beggar beating her little daughter. She then sent her to take money from me. The little girl was crying and in pain. I held her hands, they were cold. I asked her what her name was; she said Zenab. I comforted her, wiped away her tears, told her to stay strong and not to cry, and gave her some money because I knew her mother would beat her again if I didn't. I acted very compassionately, but I still felt nothing. On the way out, I saw a weak old lady trying to cross the street. She asked me to help her, and I did. She praised me a lot and prayed for me. I still felt nothing. Today, I went to the old city and visited the citadel there. I used to have a certain spiritual connection with it in the past. Still, I felt nothing. I'm writing this right now objectively without emotions. It's bizarre, yet I guess it's natural. I even tried watching porn, and now I hardly get aroused. .. I contemplated why I get annoyed by 'remember'. She did interfere a couple of times in discussions I was having where she shouldn't have. She projected many things onto me, and everything she was saying was unsolicited. And then, I noticed that she's a try hard for creativity. She isn't creative, but she tries her best to be so. This is something I despise. Maybe because I am fake as well. And as for 'cetus56', he did once make fun of me with Leo, and he did once close a thread I started for no good reason. I tried to contact him with the intention of unlocking it, but I didn't say it directly because I despise him. Eventually, he stopped replying to me. Besides, he seems to always be trying to create an image of himself as an enlightened someone. I think that he's a deluded ideologue. He's a main reason for why I'm against psychedelics. I don't want to become like him. Maybe I should accept reality. Maybe the things I despise about him exist somewhere inside of me. .. I don't even know why I'm journaling. I don't actually want to journal. It's probably just a force of habit. I don't feel anything.

I have opinions, yes. But I am willing to try them whenever possible just for the sake of exploration. I just don't expect them to add much for me than I already have, and that's based on my observations of others. I don't see anyone doing magic with them, I only see people hallucinating magic. People seem to be exaggerating insights that I'm already aware of in my baseline level of awareness. Psychedelics seem to make them more dramatic. I'm sorry, but this is bullshit. Psychedelics supposedly remove the distinction between concept and direct experience. Why do you get to create the distinction wherever you want? Why can't I remove it too? For me, I am free to draw or remove the distinction wherever I want. This does not seem to be the case for the psychedelic guys. I am wary of the obsession with 'direct experience' that is accompanied with the use of psychedelics. Pushing your awareness to places where it's not ready for yet is going to cause problems. It's very apparent to me how people are misinterpreting their experiences. Higher awareness requires higher levels of maturity for proper understanding. Psychedelics won't suddenly make you a more elevated person, although they may fool you into believing so. Without enough maturity, people confuse the map for the territory, and the finger for the moon.

From a pre-rational/post-rational perspective, this is a nonsensical question. However, a rational mind would gladly take a shot and answer.

@Serotoninluv Until I see you moving mountains with your sheer will and imagination, you're just a human being with quite an imagination. Perhaps you like to privilege direct experience over intuition because you have direct experience and lack the intuition. But let's talk about results (destination).. What's the difference between you and me in practice? Do you move mountains after breakfast and I don't? What would the direct experience tell me that I don't already know? You'd say that it's the "hafligen", but again, I don't need to experience this "hafligen" because I have the truth which includes it. This is like saying that I have to experience the numerical infinity in order to prove it. Well, I don't, because I can intuit it. This "hafligen" experience is just one number out of infinity. It's like discovering the number π and getting stuck on it, amazed at how it never ends, and confuse it for the actual infinity of numbers which can be realised in every single moment without drugs, and it can also be symbolised from a direct experience of psychedelics. So, this problem does not go away with direct experience. The mind can symbolise, worship, or cling to anything including direct experience. In reality, direct experience does not mean shit (except for the mind, of course). In this case, it would me more appropriate to recommend psychedelics for a highly rational person. In this case, psychedelics aren't necessary for pre-rational and post-rational people who can intuit things and connect the dots easily. If someone believes that psychedelics offer a lot, then chances are they are highly rational. For example; direct experience of psychedelics (x) is necessary for (y) to occur. And then of course we have the argument that if you've gone on a trip, then you've probably missed something else that I, who haven't gone with you, haven't missed. In this case, I will have more relevance to here and now than you do. My sober narrative will be more connected to the present moment than your psychedelic narrative. In this case, Sadhguru's narrative has way more relevance than Leo's for example.

Oh boy! This is a can of worms for delusion. I left a whole post for this reply because I need to break it down.. It sure is. Better double-check. This point does not hold water. It's like claiming that wisdom is useless unless you derive it directly for yourself. The practical value of an insight derived from psychedelics may possibly be more effective for someone who hasn't even used them. It may simply be even more effective for them than those who derived it directly. We can actually avoid the traps that others have spotted without having to fall into each one of them individually and in person. The direct experience mindset leaves a little room for learning through others because there's not enough time to directly experience everything. We don't need a direct experience of everything in the world for us to learn some practical value. Yet, psychedelics reveal that you could have been. Talk about hypocrisy. If everything is imaginary, then why do you not believe that it's possible? I truly believe that you are not exaggerating with the numbers. However, that does make psychedelics anymore reliable or truthful. Different frequency insights don't necessarily apply to our ordinary range of frequencies.

Now, you're probably projecting. The constructs I use are pointers. I don't attach any truth to them. Likewise, I could use the same objection to debunk everything you may say. It's a dead-end discussion to call everything a mind construct, because it is a necessity for language. For example, you are creating the construct that there is a mind which can be sober or not, and that my "sober" mind is creating constructs while yours is/isn't. You can already see how pointless would that objection be. I'll tell you why; because you are talking to me in my sober state 'right now' in your sober state too. There would be no discussion if either of us was high on drugs, because there the narrative would be irrelevant, and there would be a disconnection. Here (I mean the sober state), the narrative matters a lot because we both have desires that we project out onto the world. We are discussing here to align our desires together, to connect, to find a common ground, and not to shit on each other's views. That's why the sober narrative has more relevance, because we share it. It's not a fantasy world that each one inhabits alone. If you don't want to live in this contracted and shared human world, you can try to continue inhabiting your imaginary open world, I don't have any problems with that. I wouldn't even be responding to your request in the first place. I'd just say that your mind is creating a construct of "hafligen", which is the equivalent of saying that you're hallucinating irrelevant stuff.

@mandyjw I notice you are trying to convey the truth with language and logic. They usually say that it's not what you think it is, but that's just one piece of the puzzle. The other piece is that it's exactly what you think it is. There is also the gray area in between, which is confusion and uncertainty, but it's also fine and part of the puzzle. It's the glue that holds the puzzle together! You don't need to hold a perspective of truth because all perspectives are, by definition, limited and, even worse, limiting. Liberation is realising that you can jump back and forth between perspectives without attachment to any (including this perspective). I see Leo making this mistake by trying to define the truth and encapsulate it. But it doesn't work that way. (I now realised that I used the puzzle metaphor without noticing it in your post at first ?).

Right, but I guess the freedom of choice does not make a destination any less egoic. And I'm not demonising the ego here. I'm just trying to create awareness of it. As far as I know, everything about psychedelics says destination. Just the fact that we can call it "a tool for increasing consciousness/inducing enlightenment" proves that by definition, because a tool is an egoic construct. Anyway, I agree. There may exist some ways to make use of psychedelics in a healthy helpful healing manner. BUT, the truth is not what you "experience" on psychedelics. If anything, promoting psychedelics is itself a step away from the truth. "Do +50 trips to experience God" as if we're not already experiencing it. It's like creating a statue for God to worship. The same mistake (or rather problem) that religion is dealing with. In pointing at God, people lose sight of God, and they end up deluding themselves and chasing false gods. We certainly don't need that. People already worship meditation and the Buddha statue and all the means to liberation instead of being liberated.

@Serotoninluv So, now there is a destination? Say hello to the ego.

And we don't have to stop anywhere. Who seeks to stop?

Said the mind.

Imagine and let imagine, eh? ?

I'm not sure I am. lol Why is that the question, though?

How many? Two? Three? A thousand? A billion? Doesn't prove anything to a skeptic.

Look at them; making fun of a guy whose commitment to finding the truth cost him his life. At least, he was honest with himself and everyone. He was willing to pay the price and he did. Respect for his soul and may he rest in peace. You guys are hypocrites.

Time for some shadow work.. There are two people here that annoy me the most. The first one is a member with the username 'remember'. She's just irritating. I should look deeper for why I despise her and everything she writes. The second one is the moderator 'cetus56'. I don't like him having power. I think that he shouldn't be a moderator and that he's unnecessary. .. About psychedelics; I don't know what the big deal is. I mean, if they reveal the truth, then they're definitely unnecessary because the truth is already the case. I guess that there's something more than just realising the being of the present moment. Then again, if they reveal that everything is imaginary, then we should be able to simulate a psychedelic experience through imagination, which is exactly what happens on deep meditation and inquiry. And it should be a stupid argument to say that psychedelics are quicker than meditation and other practices, because time is imaginary and effort is imaginary too. Moreover, destination itself is imaginary. Deluded folks like Leo like to advocate psychedelics, but they're just hypocrites. They say things that only seem to be true to them while they are tripping. The exact same things stop seeming true to them when the trip is over. Why is that? Either because they're just hallucinating things, or because the traditional practices are the way. In both cases, psychedelics are unnecessary, unless, of course, you imagine they aren't. .. Wow! What a beautiful song!

Exactly!

Until I see you moving mountains with your sheer will and imagination, you're just a human being with quite an imagination. Trip well ?

??‍♂️

I specifically mean that gut feeling that burns inside. How to create it and maintain it?

I'm not sure my point was clear enough. Let me elaborate a little bit; Last week, I got emotionally triggered by a traumatic event, and then the trauma gradually faded away. All the while, I felt a very intense feeling that it made me feel alive like I was dead my entire life. Right now, I feel like I'm dead once again. I feel more grounded, rational, and borderline indifferent rather than emotional and reflexive. But I don't want this! I want to ignite that feeling again. I want that strange burning desire! I want to feel alive! I feel like it's the only way I could honour living life. Life isn't meant to be lived rationally. Life is meant to be felt emotionally to its fullest. Some people equate thoughts with desire. Well, I don't. To me, desire is that raw sensation, whether it's accompanied by thoughts or not. It does not necessarily have to feel good. I just want to feel!

@mandyjw Well, here's the kicker; you're projecting a 'negative' value onto projections, which is probably a learned value from the projections that others have made onto you, and by doing that, you're giving your authority away to them, but you certainly don't have to. You can project all you want without resistance. In fact, you can't not make projections. You, as a perception (ego), are a collection of projections (and so am I). The projection and projector are one, just like the perception and perceiver are. There's no such thing as a projection. How to reconcile this practically? By recognising that the value of projections is not inherent in them. Projecting assumptions onto others is not a bad thing. It's a tool for communication, that's all. Without projections, there probably wouldn't be much connection between two human beings! We'd probably be like chemicals reacting mechanically with each other without much space for subjective self-interpretation and self-expression. Projecting is an amazing tool! The subjective ego-life experience is only possible because of the ability to project. This whole thing is only possible because of it. It allows for freedom and creativity to be. So, there's a positive side to it. Choose to focus on the positives. Be the creator of your projections. Be the creator of your values.

The first conscious experience of cold showers was not bad. I didn't enjoy it, but I didn't suffer either. I went this morning and ran for 21 minutes, and then I returned back home in 6 minutes and showered for about 10 minutes. I don't know the exact temperature but it's winter, so it's probably something between 5 and 10 °C. I felt somewhat frozen in the top of head area, it hurt a little while and then it went away. The heartbeat acceleration felt intense at first. I built up to the full body shower. I couldn't do it all at once. I was afraid at first but then my body got used to it. I don't know what the value of this practice. I should have researched more about it before doing it. I have about 10 threads on this forum that I was supposed to read before. But that's the problem with curiosity, you just can't wait, it's kind of a stupid idea to rush into doing things without proper research. I guess it's a consequence of fearlessness. In fact, I have tons (over 200) internet pages that are open in my browsers. I can't read them all even if I don't have anything to do. There's only so much time everyday. Everything has its pros and cons. So, on the other hand, thinking and researching a lot without practice can become toxic. I see this problem happening with a lot of people. They're too stuck in their minds, between their maps, trying to get to perfection. This is a very basic trap. There is a balance between the thinking and doing, but I always prefer taking action because thinking is the neutral mode for the mind. It's almost always better to take action rather than think and research because you're going to think anyway, but with experience, you will have something tangible to build your thoughts on. So, why does the mind think a lot? Why can't it take a rest and be happy with whatever is? This is probably due to deep fear and insecurity. The mind is afraid of death. Thinking is how it keeps itself alive. .. I've watched Leo's video on The World Values Survey, and all I can say is that Leo is trying hard to be Turquoise while he's just a Green hippy pushing his agendas, at least from my perspective. The main mistakes I see him making is that, firstly, he is projecting his hippy values out onto the world without acknowledging or being aware of that, he quite often even actively denies his biases, he's just a liberal, not so much sophisticated. Secondly, he is denying many things that he supposedly should be accepting and integrating in order for transcendence to occur. I don't know if it's his desire to be right or his biases that blind him, but he rejects and denies things like fear and basically everything he deems "low consciousness". I mean how stupid is that?! He prefaces his video by saying that the foundation of higher consciousness is built upon lower consciousness, and then proceeds to build a hierarchy and demonise low consciousness. Thirdly, and related to the previous point, he believes that intellectuals should be the leaders of society. He believes that the labour force are dumb people who shouldn't have a say. This hierarchy is problematic, it's practically the same hierarchical structure as aristocracy, "people who are born in a better position should lead". It's ridiculous, but it makes sense to Leo because he himself is an intellectual, and he's not aware of his biases. Overall, very good video for the ordinary people, but not for me. He didn't actually add much insights for me. And I'm not saying this to brag, but this is my journal and I'm being honest with myself first and foremost. I think Spiral Dynamics is a much better and much more nuanced model. Good insight: stage Green demonises what's below and should be more compassionate. Lower stages demonise Green and should be more humble and acknowledge the fact that Green is above. A good couple of warnings towards the end. Good quote: "In the long run, we're all dead." .. There's a lot to say today, and I'm struggling to even put it into words. I'm very sure I've left out many insights I wanted to record today. It's been a busy and an insightful day.