Mason Riggle

Suspension of disbelief, sometimes called willing suspension of disbelief, is the intentional avoidance of critical thinking or logic in examining something surreal, such as a work of speculative fiction, in order to believe it for the sake of enjoyment. (We do this all the time when we watch fiction movies or TV.. we suspend our disbelief in things like zombies or vampires or aliens, because it would ruin the fun if we didn't). At some level you enjoy being scared of death. It's like watching a scary movie, just so you can feel afraid. Sometimes, when a movie is 'too scary', you may even be tempted to turn the movie off, or perhaps just look around the room to remind yourself that it's only a movie, and that there's nothing to fear... you may even laugh at how scared you made yourself by intentionally pretending it was real.

@The0Self well, I never said what you are saying. I said, "you are what you normally consider to be not you". As you said, there is no separation. It's all you.

@The0Self whatever there 'is', is what you are, always.

@The0Self yes, no 'separate' self. Often this is confused with 'no self'. While Everything does = Nothing, there seems to be 'Something', because 'nothing/everything' doesn't 'seem' like anything. As long as there is 'seeming', there seems to be a 'you', and it's possible to be incredibly confused about what 'you' seem to be.

@The0Self have you ever considered that 'you' are everything that is 'normally' considered to be 'not the self'? It's not that there's not a 'you'.. it's that 'you' are 'all of it'. The Universe experiencing itself from a certain perspective.

"I didn't get this wise by being smart" - My wife.

"If I was half as smart as I think I am, I'd be twice as smart as I actually am." - Me.

When I first learned the word 'experiencing', it never occurred to me to think of it as an action verb.. it was a word I thought of as similar to 'seeing', 'feeling', 'hearing', 'sensing'.. something happening 'to me'. But then I thought, what if that's not quite right.. and I started to think of it as an 'action' verb, more like 'running', 'drawing', 'contemplating', etc.. I am drawing a picture. I am typing a sentence. I am experiencing reality. Those are things that I am doing. Just some food for thought.

"Am I doing this, or is this doing me?" - Alan Watts

@Strangeloop yes, because I asked you the same question you asked me, rhetorically.

@Strangeloop then I guess you answered your own question.

@Strangeloop Interesting question, but why would you want my answer when you can have your own?

@Strangeloop congratulations.. you've invented books.

Recognize that 'trying to be like yourself' and 'trying not to be like yourself' are the same thing. YOU are something (Everything) that is happening, not something that 'does things'.

@Jacobsrw Determinism says nothing about a 'single cause'. It's basically - cause and effect. That humans can make *fairly accurate* predictions, is evidence for reality being determined in this 'cause and effect' manner.. but predictions are not guaranteed because we can't know all of the causes.. and the further out our predictions, the less probable they become. All it takes is one unknown factor to derail even the most confident prediction. Many people make the assumption that Detetminism is a model of reality that explains how events 'began', but this is a false assumption. It's a failure of logic to assume the Universe 'began' or that it will 'end'. If you get comfortable with infinite regress (and infinite progress) then this assumption goes away. Consider: how big is reality? How old is it? These questions are born of the assumption that reality is not infinite. We see evidence for a determined reality everywhere we look. Why do you think your comment will get responses? Because you understand that your comment will DETERMINE how others will respond. If determinism were not true, you couldn't predict anything at all. The floor might fall out from underneath you at any moment without cause. Gravity could suddenly fail, without cause. Nothing could be 'determined'. We couldn't predict anything. Events would just be happening 'without cause', and we couldn't say why anything happened. Why did I write this? No reason. Why do bridges stay up? Don't know.. just lucky I guess. Will cutting this tree cause it to fall? Who knows? We can't even guess.

There is no other 'self' than the totality of that which you are aware. Who is it that thinks there is a 'higher self' you should seek to access? Some lower self? “The reason you want to be better is the reason why you aren’t, shall I put it like that? We aren’t better because we want to be. Because the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Because all the do-gooders in the world whether they’re doing good for others or doing it for themselves are troublemakers: on the basis of “kindly let me help you or you will drown,” said the monkey putting the fish safely up a tree. Sometimes doing good to others and even doing good to oneself is amazingly destructive because it’s full of conceit. How do you know what’s good for other people? How do you know what’s good for you? If you say you want to improve then you ought to know what’s good for you, but obviously you don’t because if you did then you would be improved. So, we don’t know. We do not really know how to interfere with the way the world is.” —Alan Watts

1) This is not Determinism. 2) Determinism doesn't 'argue' anything.. determinists do. 3) 'Predetermined' is a redundant term, like 'pre-planned'.. you can't 'determine' something 'prior to' determining it. You can't plan something prior to planning it. You don't 'pre-plan' your trip to the beach.. you just plan your trip to the beach. Things are 'determined' by 'determinants', not 'predetermined'. Determinism is a relatively simple notion, that in my opinion, has never been 'debunked'. In it's simplest terms, it's one half a duality.. Not Determined or Determined. If you consider what 'not determined' means regarding any 'event', it means that 'nothing' caused the event to be how the event was. I don't know of any model of reality where the sentence 'nothing caused something' is coherent. Yet, we see examples of the opposite being true. The distance of the Javelin was 'determined' by the angle and speed of the toss, the wind resistance, etc.. The behavior of the bridge was 'determined' by it's shape, construction material, amount of use, etc.. Even in quantum mechanics, quantum events are not 'uncaused' (not caused), random, or unpredictable. The very fact that minds can make fairly accurate predictions at all, is excellent evidence for a 'determined' Universe. Any 'unpredictability' seems to come from the fact that we don't have access to every 'determining' factor. There are always 'unknowns', but just because we don't know what 'determined' something, doesn't mean that something was 'not determined'. ---------------------------------------------------- 'freewill'.. the notion that in any given moment things could occur 'other than how they are occurring' is nonsense. @Kalo is correct.. there is only 'Gods Will' or 'the will of the Universe'.. or 'what will'.

@Pm Me Famous Quotes nice. I like that response. ?

@Pm Me Famous Quotes will this discussion occur on this material forum, between a material you, and a material me? This paper you're writing.. will it be on actual paper, or imaginary paper? Jokes aside, If an imaginary reality that persistently seems material is indistinguishable from one that's actually material, does it 'matter' (see what I did there?) which is the case? PS.. just questions to ponder.. I won't be commenting further, at risk of being banned. Good luck on your imaginary paper!

Recognize that everything is happening automatically, and nobody is doing it. Consider: If you were me, you would be doing exactly what I'm doing right now, because you would be me. But you are you, so you are doing what you are doing, and there's nothing else you could be doing. (because conditions in any moment are what they are, and for something to occur now that is 'other than what is occurring now', some condition of now would have to be different than what it is). The only thing you ever do is 'be yourself', and you're always doing it. Consider: Imagine there is a faster way to get to work, but you are unaware of it. Could you become aware of it any sooner than you become aware of it? Could you wish to become aware of it any sooner than you wish to become aware of it? Recognize that you can't change anything. If it suddenly occurs to me to stop solving problems, then that is what happened. There wasn't anything else that was ever going to happen. Thoughts may change, but they are constantly changing, and you're not changing them. Change happens. Everything is happening exactly how it will.

Confucius say- Man who stands on toilet, high on pot.

This all becomes very clear if/when it's recognized that there's nothing you do in the first place, other than 'be yourself', and you're always doing that, without trying. Consider: How hard are you trying to be yourself right now? Well, you're not trying at all. You just ARE yourself (no matter if you think you're some individual locus of attention, or the whole Universe), in every moment. Recognize that 'trying to be like yourself' and 'trying not to be like yourself' are the exact same thing. They are both 'what you are doing', which is 'being yourself'. Everything is happening, and nobody is doing it.

'You' are a pattern of thoughts being produced by an organism, which is being produced by it's environment. You are a manifestation of the Universe the way a whirlpool is a manifestation of the Universe. Could you show me a whirlpool without showing me that which is not the whirlpool? What is a whirlpool? Is there really a 'whirlpool' somewhere in the river, separate from the river? Where does the whirlpool go when the river dries up?

It can be realized that there's nothing to do because.. There is no 'you' inside your organism that does things. There are organisms that behave how they do, the same way trees behave how they do. Asking, 'who is thinking my thoughts?' is like a tree asking, 'who is growing my leaves?'. Human organisms thinks thoughts. Trees grow leaves. Consider: your organism is growing hair. Are you 'doing' that? Can you stop? Are you thinking your thoughts? Can you stop? You can't stop 'being your organism' because there's no 'you' who's doing it. Your organism is 'happening', it's growing hair, it's thinking thoughts, but there's no separate 'you' who's doing it. The 'you' that your organism thinks is 'authoring and noticing thoughts, and feeling emotions and sensations' doesn't exist. (Where inside your organism is this you?) "What you (your organism) mistake to be the thinker of thoughts, is just more thought." - Sam Harris This imagined 'you' is something that is happening, not something that 'does things'. A useful analogy (useful to human organisms) is that of a whirlpool in a river. 'You' are like the whirlpool. It's something the river is creating in each new moment, but if I asked you to take the whirlpool out of the river and show it to me, you couldn't, because there is no 'whirlpool' in the river. Whirlpools don't 'do' anything.. Rivers do whirlpools, and landscapes do rivers.. but these things are 'happening' without anyone who 'does them'. There is just 'what is happening', and 'you' are part of what's happening.. not something that 'does' things. Sure, thoughts are arising, and brains are aware of them.. but 'you' aren't 'doing' that. There is no you. Nothing to do. Consider: how hard are you trying to 'be you' right now? Not at all. You can't stop 'being you'. 'You' don't think. 'You' don't make choices. 'You' don't do things. Organisms think. Organisms make choices. Organisms do things. Consider: Trying 'to be like yourself' and 'trying not to be like yourself' are the same exact thing. They are both 'what you are doing', which is 'being you', and you're always doing it, effortlessly. Consider: if you were me, you'd be doing exactly what I'm doing, because you would be me, being me.

There is one thing we can know for sure, and that is that 'it's like something' right now. Our own experience is 'self evident' even if we are totally confused about the contents of experience. If I'm confused about the contents of my experience (perhaps this is all a dream, or a hallucination, or illusion) then I can't even trust that this sentence, or this forum, or Leo's videos, etc. 'mean' anything... Assuming that this conversation is meaningful, is all I need to keep having it. Similarly, I don't know for sure that my car is outside in my driveway. Maybe I'm fooling myself. I also don't know that there aren't dragons flying around outside, waiting to eat me... The only recourse to this is to behave in terms of degrees of certainty. I'm fairly certain my car is in my driveway. I'm fairly certain I'm writing this sentence in this forum. I'm pretty sure there aren't dragons outside. Consider- The statement, 'we can't know anything.', can only be known to be true, if it's false.