aurum

That’s exactly right. None of these macro structures are changing anytime soon. We are way too underdeveloped collectively and too dependent on them for our survival. This is a serious self-deception for many in the metacrisis community. If you want to talk about healing the ecological crisis, I’m on board. But self-deceptions around what is possible are not helpful. In addition, I’m not convinced that long-run energy use will decrease even when these structures inevitably change. We are likely headed for being an intergalactic species that colonizes space, and I just don’t see that using less total energy.

Of course. It's pretty obvious Elon is lacking in the integrity department. It's hard to become douchebag-overlord-oligarch otherwise.

@Emerald I never saw that debate as strictly being about Elon's integrity, so maybe there was some miscommunication there. It was always a broader discussion for me. And I'm not sure why you'd want to deliberately narrow it anyway. Yes, of course leftists get somethings right about Elon. That's also never been the issue. The issue is that they're still biased in their assessment. You can be biased and make good points. These are not mutually exclusive. I personally started having a bad feeling about him as soon as he bought Twitter. That was one of the first unhinged moves I saw him make. The next big problem I can remember was him doing that interview where he talked about Xavier being dead to him and that he wanted to "destroy the woke mind virus". So he was certainly less unhinged pre-COVID at a minimum. No, it's much worse than that. You give them too much credit.

Not exactly. Targeted analysis is absolutely necessary for a full, comprehensive understanding. It's just not sufficient. And yes, it will inherently lead to a more flawed understanding if that is all you do. I come to this forum to cut through as much bias, ideology and human "side-taking" as I can handle. That's the filter I run when I evaluate perspectives. That's what I consider necessary to claim that you are doing Tier 2, conscious politics and honest sense-making. If you're not doing that, then you're doing something else.

I stand by it. Nothing about what has happened over the last couple of months changes much of how I feel. Leftists continue to not have a balanced understanding of Musk, even though they insist that they do. I do think your perspective is probably more nuanced than I originally gave you credit for though. And Musk has certainly continued to degenerate in a disappointing fashion.

Energy use is going to continue to rise globally. Expecting anything else is impossible at this point.

Whatifalthist is a masterclass of misunderstanding the left. I think he's pretty sincere, but unfortunately deeply confused. I hope he figures things out.

I understand. Just keep working on it. If you feel like you have serious mental health challenges, consider professional help.

What's wrong is that you're not being grounded. No good can come from this kind of thinking.

My only question is how long until you are banned from the politics section for this pro-Trump nonsense.

I don't want to keep answering your doomsday questions.

Generally, Green and Yellow would not support someone lower like Trump. In this case though, I think Trump did win over some Greens specifically because of RFK and his alternative health / anti-establishment rhetoric. Alternative health is an interesting mix of Green / Blue. Both can have strong skepticism of rationalism and mainstream science, but they tend to come at it from a different place. Blue is more concerned about the loss of religion, while Green is usually more hippie.

Depends on what you value and want out of life. If what you want is to be rich and successful, then yes. If you want something higher than that, then no.

But societal technology has not moved on. We are not living in a Green world with a minority of Blue / Orange folks clamoring for the past. We are living in a Blue / Orange world with a minority of Green folks flailing at pushing things forward. Well yes, I expect a counter-counter backlash. That's just how growth works. Growth is push-pull, push-pull, push-pull. Right now we are pulling. Also, I expect a counter-counter backlash simply because of Trump's incompetence / narcissism. Trump is not just a normie Blue / Orange, he represents a particularly toxic form of Blue / Orange with probably a decent amount of Red. That's why I've been raising the alarm about him more than anything else. Imagine the difference between living under Marcus Aurelius vs Nero. Trump is a lot closer to Nero.

No, not for naught. But we've definitely hit a collective ego backlash. Yes, but Tier 1 in general struggles to see past its own value system. Not just Green. If anything, Green is better at it than the lower stages. So it's not right to just pick on Green for this.

You certainly can push values that are too high, too fast or too soon. That's one of the key insights of the model. And that's where "spiral wizardry" comes into play. Greens are generally ignorant about spiral wizardry. They just think everyone should be Green already.

Technically we are probably headed for more a Blue / Orange hybrid. But yes, even there will be some conflict of values. Orange is not going to like Blue's religious imposition, and vice versa. The values war doesn't really ever end until (maybe?) Tier 2. I would be careful though about assuming how much people will care about "lost progress" though. Much of the progress we've made was beyond people's ability to handle anyway. It's not "lonely" Green and Yellow people. It's mostly just Blue and Orange, being Blue and Orange.

No. Emerald, they don't want what you want. The reason they perceive Green to be against their needs is because IT IS in the way of their needs. The needs of that stage of development, which are fundamentally different. This is a values war, and someone is going to win.

Sure, that's true to a degree. But also, that doesn't mean they have developed the maturity necessary for actual progressive values. Progressivism is just group-think and ideology for many of them.

Sure, but I wouldn't think you could stop this regression by building more Green community. The conservative leaning element of the populace, which is the majority of people, have no interest in Green community. That's why we haven't developed it. What they want is Blue. Giving them more Green cannot solve that.

Young people are very undeveloped and essentially just conformist robots. They're a lot more like Stage Blue than actual Green.

Think 50 years, not just the last four years. The Trump storm has been brewin' for a long time.

What's true though is that this election was a reaction against Stage Green values. Stage Green made progress. People freaked out and reverted back to the mean by voting Trump. That's everything that happened in a nutshell.

Seeing who supports Trump is so good for exposing people.

No. I don't accept this distinction you are making. I've seen how MM does his consults with people. I've read some of his work and tried the celery juice thing. It's more than enough for me to recognize that what he is doing is nonsense. There is nothing unique, impressive or special about what he does. It's essentially pure grift. He deserves to be placed in the category of alternative health crocodiles. He is meeting his survival needs somehow through all this. The specifics of how he is doing it don't matter. Top-tier delusion.