Farnaby

@Emerald hmm, do you really believe that deep down we're only attracted to physical attributes? Maybe I'm repressing my masculine side or I have a stronger "feminine" side than the average man, but I wouldn't be satisfied only with big tits. I think most men are also seeking intimacy, love, connection. We're just less in touch with those aspects or talk less openly about them because society has taught us that those are "girly" things. Having read a lot of your posts, I'm pretty sure we actually agree on that part: we both have similar needs and long for similar things, it just manifests differently and maybe in a different order when first meeting a person (i.e us being more focused on "hotness" and women more on personality traits and so on). But I also think that women have been conditioned to put on a façade that says "hotness isn't important to me, I mostly value intimacy and personality". I'm not a woman so I can't speak for you, but I've noticed these incongruencies between what women say and how they act. Of course, we do this too, it's part of the game and ideally I would like everyone to be more honest so we can stop hiding our truth.

@Emerald I think being geared towards intimacy vs. attraction is not the problem here and IME it's a false dichotomy. As you said (and I agree with it) we wouldn't be deeply satisfied without any intimacy in our lives. We both need it, men and women, or at least that has been my personal experience. However, what I think was triggering some men in this thread is the harsh judgement they received when they were blunt about how we like big tits, beautiful women, etc. As if this was in some way a less conscious/evolved preference than the need for intimacy. This, to me, is clearly coming from a place of spiritual ego, as in "we're better/more evolved than you because we value intimacy over physical attributes". I also think there are some deep feminine wounds around physical attributes, because as soon as someone mentions big tits a lot of women tend to feel objectified, like a piece of meat, etc. But then, at the same time you demand 100% honesty from us, no games and so on. So it's kind of a double-bind and contradictory message. IMO, if we truly want to be more conscious and spiritually developed, we need to be honest about our more instinctual desires, instead of judging them as "less than".

Yes, it's possible because we have mirror neurons, empathy and so on. You would probably not be as traumatized as the direct victim, but the psyche is complex so I wouldn't say it's impossible. I also think this is more likely to happen if you yourself have something inside you that resonates with the experience. For instance if you are on high alert because of stuff that's going on in your life, you could easily be more affected if you see someone who had an accident. If you're in a better place mentally and emotionally you're probably going to be less traumatized (or not at all). All this stuff is really complex and I would say no one knows for sure how this works, but that has been my experience and observation. I often find myself strongly resonating with other people's vibe. For example if my girlfriend is feeling bad or even panicking a bit and I'm not feeling very grounded, I can easily start to feel some anxiety/panic as well.

@Preety_India No disrespect, but the fact that you argued over the haircut for a week and that you wanted to prove something, shows that you still cared deeply about what he thought about you. It seems like you wanted him to love you despite whatever you would choose to do, so it's a trap and it doesn't seem true that you didn't care at all. This is not a judgement at all, because I believe we all care about what other people (especially our close ones) think of us. But I think it's important not to bullshit ourselves. In regards to your point about us not being honest and therefore you not being able to trust us, what came first the chicken or the egg? You implied it yourself: if we walked straight up to you and told you we find you sexy and want to fuck, you would consider us a weirdo and reject us at best. At the same time you demand 100% honesty. How can we be 100% honest if it doesn't work and how can we expect you to trust us deeply if we aren't. It's impossible. But we are both to blame for this dynamic, not only men. Coming back to the point of the thread, I agree that none of us can see the whole picture and we're always biased by our own experiences and ego. Personally, I'm not ONLY interested in sex and looks, but it certainly is one of the first things that ignites my attraction towards a woman. However, I also want a deeper more intimate connection for a long term relationship.

@Arcangelo Could you elaborate on how it could be my fault? I always tend to consider that every bad mood of my girlfriend (or almos everyone else) is my responsibility or my fault. I'm probably quite neurotic about it lol No cheating though, we both are as honest as we can and we have often talked about how we would let the other one know if we're feeling attracted to another person and considering acting out that desire. Of course she could be lying to me but I know her enough to trust her on this and she trusts me too.

Hi! I'd like to hear your opinion on something that has been on my mind quite often. I feel like it's my responsibility as a man if my girlfriend isn't feeling interested in having sex. I'm not sure if this is a trauma response where I take on 100% of the responsibility, but I feel like the sexual tension/attraction mostly depends on how I'm showing up. The problem with this is that I can take some rejection without my confidence being affected and stay in a positive mood, but when it happens more often or if I feel her being hypercritical or just somehow distant, it starts dragging me down and it becomes harder and harder (no pun intended lol) to be in the mood to embody those qualities that could ignite the passion. So, on one hand I feel responsible, but on the other hand I can't help feeling frustrated when I've been working on myself so I can feel more confidence and embody my masculinity and still feel like she doesn't want us to have sex. She says she is so stressed in general that she has no interest in sex at all right now, but a part of me doesn't believe this and I think I'm doing something wrong. It would be nice to hear your opinion on this topic, especially if you've been in long-term relationships or have experienced something like this. Thanks a lot!

@Emerald really interesting analysis and I found your Ayahuasca report very enlightening. I'm certainly guilty of tending to be avoidant when things get difficult. I have a question though. You say Don't you think it's possible that this has to do with how our biology functions differently, not only because of socialization? I also think this need to run away could also be linked to us men sometimes finding it emotionally easier to deal with a group of friends than with our girlfriend/wife. It's like a nice space where we can talk about stuff in a way that would trigger most women. So, in a sense it's an opportunity to not have to walk on eggshells. I'm not blaming women for this, because it's our responsibility to stop walking on eggshells, but it certainly seems easier around other men. I guess it's the same for you when you need to talk about stuff that would trigger men's insecurities. And maybe it's also related to us feeling more understood by other men because they probably have experienced the same issues or very similar ones in similar ways.

I guess our biological instincts haven't catched up with how modern society works. Attraction still works like a thousand years ago. Just watch how men and women interact with each other, especially heterosexual people. Of course there are exceptions, but a more feminine woman will generally be more attracted to a guy who leads, is confident and with whom she feels contained than to a passive guy who lacks confidence. It actually has nothing to do with being a scientist or a truck driver, but with the vibe/energy/attitude towards life that we express as men.

Maybe that's true, but on an instinctive level I think women are generally more attracted to confident men who lead and aren't too passive. I think it's an unconscious biological thing and it makes sense because the stronger and healthier male will generally be more able to protect her and the kid(s) if needed.

@EnRoute I've experienced this too, especially if I socialize and smoke weed at the same time. But it's always subtly there, it just gets more intense and noticeable with weed. It's probably caused by trauma and coping mechanisms such as avoidance, overthinking, etc. I would strongly suggest seeing a trauma informed therapist (or better yet, trauma trained), establish a healthy routine with enough exercise and keep socializing so you get used to it. The key is to learn how to understand what's happening to you and why, learn to calm your nervous system and get more experienced socially so you feel more confident in your skills. You can also try working with your internal parts, because this usually has to do with a conflict between some vulnerable/spontaneous part and a protector part that keeps you frozen trying to protect you from something. Hope this helps!

Hey everyone! I just found Leo's video about fake growth vs. real growth and it triggered one of my recurring doubts: "am I really starting to become more confident or just faking it?" Let me start by saying that I used to be a pretty confident and outgoing child until around 7-8 and the biggest changes happened as a teenager where I became way more shy than I ever was before. So, in a sense, I think that the shyness, the overthinking, the people-pleasing isn't the authentic me but the result of some negative experiences. Recently, I've been having moments where I felt really confident around people and I felt more in touch with my masculinity (and also with my feminine side, so just more spontaneous and flexible in general). However, there is still this thought in the back of my mind that says: "no way, you haven't been confident in years, that's not you, you're just faking it". I think it's just my scared ego and my trauma response, but I'm not sure if it could be right when it says I'm faking it because it feels very different to what I've been used to the last 15 years or so. Maybe a concrete example is useful: I used to avoid eye contact, play small, fake smile to please others and my body used to be tense as if I'm protecting myself. Recently, I've been making a big effort to notice whenever that happens and embody a more confident posture, speak my truth, look people in the eyes, etc. At first, this feels scary and kind of fake, but after a while I feel so much more free and in touch with myself and other people instead of being in my head. Would you say this is fake growth or am I on the right track and this awkwardness is just a part of this process? Thanks a lot!

I guess I've been doing it wrong all this time. But you're right: if I worry so much about becoming more confident, it's a clear sign of insecurity lol. The question is how do you overcome this vicious cycle. Just not do anything about it? No self-improvement stuff at all because the intention behind all of that is to get rid of the insecurities and therefore it's a sign of insecurity in itself? Or maybe it's a process that happens in stages and one of the stages requires caring about this because you can't not care about it?

Thank you! Yes, you're right. It's easier said than done though. Maybe by just ignoring that inner part that second-guesses myself I can stop fueling it ? @universe Thanks a lot for your input, it made things very clear. I would say I do a third option though. I don't plan things so that I don't feel insecure (at least not as much as I used to). I just live my day to day life and when a situation triggers my insecurities, I don't run from it and just keep going while somtimes using some grounding techniques. I also use those moments to make a mental note about what I still need to work on. So, I don't avoid feeling insecure, but I definitely spend a lot of time thinking about this and how to get over it, especially in those triggering situations or shortly after. How can I not care about something that I do care a lot? Just surrendering or watching myself caring about it without fueling it (meditation)?

@intotheblack she wasn't happy mainly because of what you said: she didn't see a clear direction where the relationship is headed towards, she was doubting if she's still in love (which went away after we talked it through and reconnected with each other) and she said that things that used to make her miss me, like me sleeping at a friend's house or going on a trip have started to not affect her at all and that's something she isn't used to when she feels in love. The last couple of days it's been a lot better and I think it has a lot to do with me showing up differently, taking care of my life purpose, etc.

@intotheblack hi! the rest of intimacy is generally very good, except for some recurring phases where I feel like she's more distant, hypercritical and I tend to withdraw. Not sure what comes first, if the chicken or the egg lol. We've been living together for almost 5 years and spend most of our time together, which I think has to change a bit so we can feel more fulfilled in other areas of our life. I agree that sex isn't the most important aspect and that's why I think this relationship is still worth it. But I can't deny what I'm feeling in regards to sex, feeling like she's not attracted to me, so I will keep working on going all in in general in my life and see where it leads me @Nahm yep, that really resonated. We do generally have lots of physical intimacy that isn't sex and I do lots of stuff to get some stresses off her shoulders. Although, at this point I have to mention that she tends to want to do her all herself (especially house chores) and when she's already stressed it's hard for her to feel that she can relax and that I have no problem with doing that stuff. Anyways, I will follow your advice because it rings true for me. @Lyubov indeed. @somegirl thank you for your advice! It's the latter so I will give the relationship a chance but without neglecting myself and trying to stop resentment from building up because that just hurts both of us.

@Nahm oh I understand now. That's what I usually try to do. I don't know if I'm doing it wrong, but after a while it feels like I'm repressing an important need if I don't tell her "hey, I'm not happy with our current dynamic and I'd like to feel more connected and passionate with you". But maybe you're right and I should just focus on making myself feel better and then maybe I don't feel the need to tell her that, because I'm usually frustrated when I say that and it just makes things worse. It's hard to find a balance between repression and oversharing.

@flowboy thanks a lot for your advice. Yes, you're right that by looking where I didn't want to look (i.e how easily I get triggered and lose confidence) and acting in a more masculine way, such as not hiding my truth, being as honest as I can, focusing on my purpose, things seem to get back on the right track. Yes I've read that book and have been listening to lots of stuff about relationship dynamics, masculinity-femininity and so on. What do you mean when you say that working on myself is a coping mechanism? I always felt like withdrawing was my main coping mechanism and I see how from time to time I withdraw when I focus on working on myself, but lately what I mean by "working on myself" is actually the opposite: to stop hiding and facing uncomfortable situations, trying to connect to my inner truth and overcoming my fear of conflict. About the passion, I do want more of that. When it was there it's when I felt most alive and not being able to satisfy that need feels unnatural to me. I'm not the type to need to get laid with many different women because I like the depth of more intimate relationships (that's probably my feminine side), but with the person I choose I need to have a decent amount of passion and so on in order to feel happy. She used to be more passionate, but was never the ultra passionate type. However, if we can have what we had before all of this, I would be satisfied. @Nahm don't worry, I know how easy it is to misinterpret things over the internet. I hear what you say and it makes sense on a spiritual level, but I feel like I can't control whether I'll feel frustrated/rejected or not. I feel like the uncomfortable sensation precedes the story of "she rejected me, there's something wrong about me". The story is probably not true, but I can't just neglect the sensation and override it with a more positive thought. Your answers, especially the first one, helped me a lot though, because you hit the nail on the head with many things you said @ilja yep, I think that's the way forward. Go all-in, stop withdrawing when conflict arises and see what happens. Thank you!

@Snader yes, that has been my experience too and that's why I'm not a fan of the idea of breaking up a beautiful relationship where the only thing that I miss is feeling like she's sexually attracted to me. Especially because like you, I think how I show up has a huge impact on this and I believe it can get better (because I've seen in happen in the past). The problem I'm facing is being able to remain grounded when this dynamic has been going on for quite some time. It's easy to get frustrated. Anyways, thanks a lot for your input! @mandyjw thank you for your advice! Yes, I think that there is some deeper stuff going on and not just stress from studying and work, because we had an honest conversation a couple of days ago where she said she wasn't feeling very happy in the relationship. After talking about this and opening up to each other, the lack of connection we were both complaining about, started to dissipate. @ilja yes. We're not the most passionate couple though (which I think has to do with neglecting some important aspects in the relationship and our own insecurities). @Leo Gura thanks for your input. I have been gravitating towards that honesty (accepting wherever it leads us) lately when we talk about all these things and it seems to be helping. @RendHeaven I've certainly considered this option and I've experienced that internal struggle. Not so much in the sense that you said it (judging sex as something shallow), but more related to me not wanting to give up on this relationship while I think it can be fixed. @Nahm thanks a lot for your in-depth answer. Many of the things you said resonated deeply. I just want to make it clear that I'm not pursuing sex for the sake of sex, but because it increases my connection and intimacy for her. Also, because feeling like you can't sexually approach your partner becomes quite frustrating and it probably triggers some personal stuff around not being good enough. Maybe I'm selfish, but I think many people would feel that way after a while. I actually tend to be on the opposite side of the spectrum (people pleasing, putting other people's needs above my own), not on the side of people who quit a relationship as soon as the other person isn't fulfilling some personal need. I'm also not working on myself to get laid, but because it feels good to overcome my fears, insecurities and become more masculine. It feels natural and good. However, I have to admit that you are right about my tendency to try to "solve" the problem and I do get frustrated when nothing changes. It's true that when I just hold space and when I'm able to be more selfless, magic happens and we feel connected again. The problem for me is doing that when I'm triggered. The only thing I've found that works for me is focusing on myself and how to feel better, before returning to her.

@SamC yep, it's a paradox. If you can't accept yourself, accept that and you get unstuck and are actually accepting yourself ? You can also use moments where you feel something you don't like, like jealousy or greed to practice compassion for other people who feel that way. By doing that you are also incressing your compassion for yourself. Not forcing is the key IMO.

@SamC IMO modesty has to happen spontaneously. If you force yourself to be modest it's like forcing yourself to be less selfish. You're doing it from a place of self rejection and selfishness (i.e to feel like a better person). By accepting yourself the way you are, these qualities like modesty, altruism, honesty, compassion, etc. tend to happen naturally. At least that's my experience.

@Strangeloop I would explore the motivation/emotion you were feeling in order to say something like that without having built enough trust with the girl. That's definitely something that will make most women feel unsafe. Some people have this belief that they are creepy, which works like a self fulfilling prophecy and they act in weird ways. So it's a kind of self sabotaging acting out. Self-sabotaging is a coping mechanism that stems from fear. For instance, you can be afraid of being rejected by being yourself so you do things that lead to that because that way you feel in control and it feels familiar. What needs to be felt in that case is the underlying emotions of the wounded inner child. If you want to connect with women, you need to learn how to be in your body, go with the flow, not second guess yourself too much and of course explore that belief about women being sexual objects. It's impossible to have empathy for someone if you see them like an object.

@flowboy wow, thanks for the in-depth advice! I'm actually a therapist myself lol (you sound like one too^^). Not CBT but I know how it works. It's been 5 years or more since my last mushroom trip. Right now I prefer to approach this sober, but I may trip later this year. I will look into the stuff you mentioned. In my case I think my mother was emotionally available but she's the fearful/worrier kind and tends to take many things personal (victim mindset). My father is even more fearful, but he used to shut down emotionally and punish everyone with silence. He still does it to some degree. Also very stuck in victim mindset. Maybe that's why I don't have a lot of compassion for people who are in victim mindset lol. I'm sure there's some "trauma" there that could explain what I'm experiencing with my girlfriend. The relationship with my girlfriend is pretty good communication-wise, except for this part. And you're right about the self-fulfilling prophecy because I used to destroy my previous relationships because of lack of trust and lack of self-confidence. That has gotten much much better, but what I'm describing here may very well be a milder version of that lack of trust, like you said. It's as if I become avoidant when she's anxious and depending too much on me and I get anxious when she's more self-absorbed. What I mean by not bringing this topic up is not completely hiding it or repressing it, but working through it on my own until I release the stories and uncomfortable emotions, so I can relate to her from a better vibe which seems to work as a positive self-fulfilling prophecy. Not sure if that makes sense lol.

Hi everyone! There's a recurrent situation that I suspect may have more to do with my own wounding than my girlfriend. When we go through a phase where I feel physically and emotionally disconnected from her, I start feeling uncomfortable and try to work through it on my own until it gets too much and I tell her how I'm feeling and what is causing me trouble in the relationship. I express it respectfully (such as "I'm feeling disconnected, I miss feeling that you're turned on by me, etc."), but in that situation you can tell I'm upset because of my non verbal language. This in turn makes her feel bad, leading to more disconnection and apologies from her that make me feel even worse. I'm pretty sure a big part of this is my own insecurities being triggered and I'm working on that, but at the same time I think it's important not to hide that something is not working for me in those phases, because even if I hide it, it manifests in my behavior. Has anyone else experienced this? Any tips on how to express needs without creating more problems? Idk maybe the best thing is to not talk about what's missing for me and just work on being in a good mood so the connection happens spontaneously.

@flowboy thanks a lot for your advice! I'm not sure what comes first. I'm not even sure if I need more sex or more intimacy. I think I need to feel that everything is ok and that usually happens when we're connected, in a good mood, etc. Behaviors that trigger it: when she becomes more irritable or self absorbed (although I'm usually the more avoidant one) doesn't want to engage in anything sexual. Story in my head: "she's becoming less and less attracted to me", "I'm doing something wrong/don't know how to turn her on", "If I tell her she's going to feel worse and it won't solve anything". I actually don't have any proof and when I bring this up she always says she's still attracted to me, she's just stuck in negativity/worries/stress. She also apologizes and starts worriying that I will leave her. The problem is I have trouble believing that (I tend to think she says that to not hurt my feelings) and I tend to blame myself for not being able to ignite the spark.

@PepperBlossoms I think most of these rules are survival responses. If someone yells at us, he/she is a threat, so our nervous system can go into fight/flight (escaping or fighting back) or shut-down (avoidance, numbness) in order to protect ourselve. I don't think that's a conscious decision, it just happens automatically. Depending on previous experiences, we tend to go more into sympathetic arousal (fight/flight) or parasympathetic (shut-down). I do think, however, that all this can be explored consciously and we can train ourselves to distinguish when the threat is real and when it's a projection from the past, in order to move through that energy and get back to safety and connection. Polyvagal Theory goes into this in great depth