Nivsch

@Raze Come ON. This happened only in the first hours, and food and water you can buy for many days until there is a real deficiency. You are just judging now and in an evil way a country who just 5 minutes before that went through a trauma. About the second part with the water before the war, if you can send me a link I will read it carefully.

If you want to attach to conspiracy to feel better and more comfortable within your mind you can, but this is only makes me take your another claims and prestigious words with which you speak out about other palestinian issues less seriously and give it a lesser weight.

Yes Netanyahu is a trump-like manipulator in a way most Israelis acknowledge and almost half of them are against him also because of this. But the feeling of fear and survival burden too.

I understand. I will just add my personal feeling about it. Iran is grasped as a very big demon in the eyes of Israelis, and thats because Iran is really the big brain that stands behind and funds Hezbollah, hamas, and the palestinian suicide bombing in busses and restaurants Israel is traumatized by from the early 00's, and also terror activities abroad against Israelis. During the recent decade Iran is developing a nuclear weapon at the exact same time when it declares more and more publicly that it wants to eliminate Israel from the map. A careful ear, when knows the past events when everybody were sure nothing really bad will happen (and we all know what happened) will take seriously this threat. The fear of Israel from Iran is very serious, and from that I can understand why Israel felt that urge to convince bush to do something that maybe will remove this untolerable nuclear threat and maybe will cause their regime to fall by the way. Also there are reasonable claims about the long term iranian's regime plan to encompass Israel physically in order to one day be able to treaten its existance. in fact, thats what middle eastern experts think that Iran wanted to do in the 7.10 surprise but hamas decided to do deal for itself and to do it alone what made Iran to be extremely in rage on it after oct 7th. I can add links on that. I agree that this is indeed hapenning, and there are a lot of close-minded Israelis especially from the right wing. But at the same time It hurts me a bit that people don't see the other sector of citizens we have here from the center-left camp (~40% and maybe more of the population) with them a deep conversation is really possible. Yes as long as the right wing is almost homogeneously controlls Israel, this is impossible. I agree about that. I can say that just couple of years ago I was more anti religion, but then I started to see that many of the "lite" religions actually have some depth in them and a sense of warmth when they relate to you, that this is harder to find among the hard-core secular ones which is interesting. But I emphasize this is probably mostly only among the 'lite' or moderate religious and of course not among the more hard-core religious that on them I agree with you.

Could you explain with at least some key examples?

I understand this happens sometimes, but you can't take every extreme case and throw it so loosely on "Israel". There are also very violent settlers. You will be surprised how less severe cases has caused soldiers to be eliminated from IDF (I hope I use the right word in english but you understand me) and even cause a public uproar. See for example Elor Azaria's case who shot in the head of an already neutralized terrorist what didn't prevent the whole center-left camp (represents more than 40% of the population) to uprise against the soldier because they felt instinctively that this is not in our values to shoot an already neutralized man's (even if he is a terrorist) head. Israel society is more advanced than what people think and maybe would want it to be. You can read it all by yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdel_Fattah_al-Sharif

No, but A more centrist one would. Give a little credit to Israel's mainstream which is not so stupid. This is not about being more and more left, but rather to know when to be more left and when to be more right. Look it is difficult to me, but I can't cancel this possibility when three non arab links say this. But I still doubt the ages, because children can also be 16-18 when they are physically developed and can be dangerous to IDF/civilians just like adults. Would Israel agree officialy to do those kind of things to 12 yo kids? I can't believe it. Maybe only if some junior prisoners would dealth their own justice and decide to do what they want.

Let me try to challenge that, because the rage and feeling of unjustness is accumulated and been cooked for years. What did you do, if you had for 18 years, every 1-2 years on average, to go for a quite surgical, limited but smart, intelligence-based operation against a gerilla organization because it just doesn't stop shooting missiles on your villages and cities. And every time again, this organization hides behind civilians, what makes western countries who also holds your values, who are supposed to understand your side, to blame you again and again, when you feel this is such an unjustness, because you know you try hard to kill only terrorists. But they are champion genius in showing a distorted exaggerated picture to the world and to hide behind their own people. And please check in wikipedia the killing ratio then that was 80% and more to the favor of terrorists quite decent. But your hands are being bounded every time after couple of days or maximum weeks, again and again. And one day this organization which exhuasted you for 18 years, kills 1200 people of you and in such a nightmarish way. Threatening your sense of security and survival in a way you never experienced before, and plus (bonus) when you know hezbollah could also join this surprise (By the original Iranian plan according to reliable sources I can add them) and threaten your very existance seriously. Having said all of the above, what would you do now? The question is not about backward justification yes or no, but about what any country would realisticly do. Just think about it and let it sink a little.

Thank you for that 🌼 First time I feel an understanding of Israelis deep feelings (from someone who is not Israeli) and survival situation.

@Karmadhi Saw it now. I glad this is over and ended in 2014 with the help of the great Justice minister Tzipi Livni. Sounds like there was a group of Israeli workers that "dealt their own justice".

+1 ❤ In my opinion, definitely exaggarated enormously by Al Jazeera (mainly) and the like echo chamber. It is one thing to talk maturely about problems and to critisize fairly, and it is totally another thing to exaggarate and to lie. Palestinian propaganda is way way more corrupt than the Israeli one and fulled with lies which I saw them being exposed in the media. They have one of the most manipulative propaganda in the world. This is naiveness to think their inner corruption won't be expressed in their media too.

@zazen Watched it all now. Yes there are minority among the settlers who create a very big problem. I understand your point here.

@Karmadhi Can you please give me a link from where you have read/heard about the children?

No. I know you are very thorough and tend to deepen with your messages in a postivie way of course but the last message dissmises the reason Israel does what it does and its survival situation from where it acts that people overlook.

Appreciate and understand. I will try to be more careful to that. We must have a less extreme more centrist government as soon as possible 😤😶‍🌫️

@Lila9 wow I also just thought about it before I saw your message. When a giant shouty word is used to explain a situation ("genocide", "atrocities" etc) this is always or mostly an escape from seeing the bigger context, the validity of the other side's pov and like an emergency compensation word the amigdala fires you to do to feel comfortable and calm again.

@BlueOak This mathematics of definitions is meaningless to me when out of the context sorry. In 1940s in Germany there were also all of that done by the allies to defeat the nazis and much more extreme.

@BlueOak Every such term like "ethnic cleansing" is totally meaningless and no more than a slogan when being related out of the bigger context. In the bigger context, hamas kidnapped and murdered our people, left Israel no option but to fight back to eliminate him or at least 95% of him before it will agree to release them all. hamas is a gerilla organization knows it is weaker than organized militaries, hence developed through its evolution a strategy we can compare to a smart virus who uses healthy cells and also diguise itself to them, in order to survive. And when you have 10,000s terror targets to attack, it is impossible to think every single time how to hurt only terrorists, and not by mistake also healthy cells, even if you try your best.

@BlueOak I really don't think it is realistic to bring back the hostages by special operations, except for only couple of hostages to the at most. Only by deal. And thank you too! I appreciate that 🙏

And the other proposals? There were countless. See Anapolis conference with MANY mediators in the negotiations: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference And sorry but to explode it all like a child is not serious. They have to understand we can't just trust them blindly after what they did, and to also do concessions. I am not saying Barack's offer was fair enough but there were so many with many more mediators in the negotiation process apart from Israel and palestine.

@zazen About the war I already explained what I think. I want to give them a state but they have refused every time. Again the settlements is a big problem and here this is israel's responsibility. Also to stop arresting children from time to time I don't like it at all. About the other slogans I am still not convinced and this is all sounds to me like a big balloon with a lot of air in it. I understand this is how they feel but they would feel it anyway as long as Israel exists.

@kenway These homes are probably empthy and if not empthy then probably populated by hamas people. This technique of cherry picking blurry stuff from the periphery and making them seen as the picture of IDF doesn't work on me. There never was and never be a symmetry between the two sides. And be thankful because any other western military would behave very likely much more dirty. You just hold IDF to be a tier 2 angle and then when it can't be a tier 2 angle you are complaining and say it is a devil. These games are transparent and embarrasing.

@BlueOak If we didn't have hostages to save, then we could argue about more creative ways to eliminate hamas as you suggested a month ago I remember and it was interesting to read. but as long as we have hostages that hamas didn't agree to release without the military pressure, I don't know if we could have another option.

Good luck with understanding the situation when you refuse to confront the emotions 7.10 might bring to you by denying and polishing techniques your mind does for you. After that, how can a fair and serious discussion be done in the first place?

I think this thread is already challenging enough goal to light 🤣😂