David Hammond

What's wrong with making a comment that wilber doesn't know what he's talking about? It's not really something to enrage a mentally stable person, is it? Are you always playing the blame game? Every time I get a new troll from you it's about how I managed to piss someone off. What exactly is it in doing that's so offensive to a normal person? (never mind a supposedly conscious group of people)? You think it wasn't warranted to mention that the guy does indeed have a few screws loose after that verbal abuse? You think people should just stand there and take verbal abuse and let the other person gaslight them by denying that they were being hostile? Have YOU got a few screws loose? Because you seem to have some kind of chip on your shoulder and a need to condition me to serve your needs. Sorry, I don't pander to overly sensitive and irrational egos.

@Leo Gura Would you say trungpa was a Zen devil? Because wilber is saying he was an asshole.

Do you have any actual evidence for this or are you just repeating something you read? Yeah, it's all love, but it's shit really. Makes 0 sense

Is ken wilber where you got your Zen devil concept from?

Let's go back to this if you don't mind. I've just had an insight that you cannot control what others do or how they respond to you in every case. The reason that I say an enlightened person stops generating karma is because whatever happens doesn't affect the enlightened person the same way it would effect the unenlightened person. Part of karma is holding onto something and continuing to create that situation time and time again. Like a self fulfilling prophecy. A Buddah would not have that issue. He would witness action but be free from being tainted by action..

You can raise your self esteem easily by just observing your hostility rather than expressing it. Every time you express hostility you make a deep cut into your self esteem. Good luck to you man. ✌

I stopped there. You really think that this delivery doesn't resemble a personal attack? Calling out my ideas looks like what I purerogue did. He talked about the ideas and came with his own ideas so we can both chew. He said nothing of me. He didn't call me names. And he didn't spew a bitter diatribe. Come one dude, who are you kidding? You really can't see how aggressive you have been? Not that it has offended me, but I just can't take you seriously or ken seriously when you say you have not been personal when you clearly have been personal. If you had done any real consciousness work you wouldn't be lying to yourself like this.

@kieranperez I was perfectly happy to have a civil discussion about ken wilber. Still Am. But you had to make it personal. Another great amdertisement for therapy and the integral model!

@kieranperez So I have a few question marks over ken wilbers work (and how it resembles nothing of reality and doesn't resonate with any timeless spiritual teaching on the planet) and you verbally attack me because I say wilber got his philosophy from smoking weed and I'm the dogmatic one?

I can see you have done a lot of therapy. You kind of prove my point in a way. You're a few biscuits short of a barrel

@kieranperez Just want to ask you one more thing buddy. You mention all these realized masters who had big egos (really strange concept!) But why do you assume that Ken wilbers work will solve these "issues"? Ken wilber contradicts himself a lot, and 2 of his own spiritual leaders were taken down by their own people. Cohen was taken down by his ashram and genpo roshi had his monk title removed from him. You have basically joined a cult.

@kieranperez But I'm not the one who is attached and feels a need to verbally attack people because they criticize a teacher I follow. Am I? Think about that also. What has tbis ideology actually done for YOU personally? You're regurgitating ideas about ideas about ideas and imagining you calling someone else out where you think they embody your maze of projections. That's my 2 cents of feedback for you.

You know, when you get lost on this stuff you might not ever find your way out of it. If every single person became enlightened on the planet today, they would all have access to timeless enlightenment principles - not this stuff. Think about that for a while.

Dude, none of this is coming from your direct experience, is it? You're talking about ideas about ideas. So what is the point? "You can be deeply enlightened and an emotional child". This is an oxymoron and indicitive of how disconnected ken wilber is. Where did you get this from? One of ken wilbers books?

Therapy, even existential therapy does not strengthen the witness. It's a dogmatic belief system. You want to know the best kind of therapy? Do nothing meditation. It's actually a scientifically sound method for dealing with thoughts and traumas. Talk therapy is pointless. But ken is unaware of this, and unaware of many things.

@purerogue I think it's wise to read more wilber because you will see he contradicts himself on this point. He says in one volume of work that psychotherapy can develop an orange ego, but in another volume he says that psychotherapy cannot move one up the stages - Only mediation or non dual experiences can. That in and of itself should rise a massive red flag. Don beck and Chris Cowan don't support him. He has endorsed abusive unenlightned cult gurus like Andrew Cohen and didn't even notice how Cohen was treating his students. He wrote about Adi Da and endorsed his teaching too. I don't want to sound like a gossip, just go research it for yourself and then decide from your own heart if you think ken wilber is worth listening to Read a bit more.

@purerogue Have you done any psychotherapy?

@kieranperez I have no Ill will toward ken. I've listened to the entire audio. Its a excerpt from kosmic consciousness. I downloaded it in 2010. It's just that his work is garbage, nobody agrees with it. Not in enlightenment circles. But his ideas are good for introducing other practices like anger management and yoga to assist with a spiritual practice. But to assert that psychotherapy is going to strngethen the witness is poposterous. Nobody listens to him. And that's not an appeal to popularity, it's just that enlightened people know he's not realized.

Empty my cup and learn what? Learn kieranpersez worldview and conform to it? will that make you like me better? We can all affirm each other's worldviews so we can avoid the discomfort of awakening. Wouldn't that be nicer for everyone? I become a ken wilber fan boy just so you can like me and I can be in your actualized.org gang?

Can you not see that this is all conditioned thinking? I'm not aware of this, it's personal to you because I have no idea what you're talking about. Let me ask you another question. Can you confirm that this is what everyone else sees and is bothered by it? If so, then you have the truth. If not, then you are thinking but not aware that you are thinking.

Ah, ok I'm projecting my own charged rage onto you. You're as cool as a cucumber and I'm the one making personal attacks... I see it now! Thank you for making me aware of my own repressed emotions.

Pinning this in case you decide to edit it later.

Ok. Let's talk about this. I sense a charge in you. Why do you feel so strongly about some random guy on the internet who you have never met, never will meet, have no interest in, have no desire to become friends with...? Why you feel so strongly?

Have you made ken wilber your appeal to authority rather than relying on your own intuition? Why such a scathing attack on someone who critizices your masters life work?

Enlightenment is after turquoise. There are no structures, structures mean ego. Turquoise is clearly a structure because if can be mapped. Nobody can map Buddah nature.