integral

This made it hard to interpret. --- Women are not responsible. I agree.

@Preety_India In most cases people are not predators before hand. It happens organically. Especially the young with sleep assault. But it will have systemic effects as well as other benefits unrelated.

Evan had no awareness of her perspective in that situation. He only saw his own desires. If evan had been thought the feminin perspective or how to empathize or how to think in perspectives he would of realized how his actions where overruling her well-being. At the same time is it ok for her to just remain ignorant of all of this? Are there no benefits to teaching her about different perspective like the feminin/masculine? Its ok for her to be ignorant of the fact that she fell asleep next to a raging bull? I'm not trying to instill fear into her about all men, this is about a realistic education to complete peoples understanding of each other and themselves. Are you guys seeing how i blamed no one and I'm not saying educating women will yield better results in avoiding assault, but it will likely have some benefit in that its important overall for personal and societal growth. Systemic effects. Both are clueless and both need a education, that will bring the societal changes your seeking. --- My sister grew up with out trauma, in her 20s she injured her back and a friend picked her up to carry her to the car. After words he said "i couldn't believe the goddess that was in my arms". she felt betrayed by this, how can he be thinking these thoughts when I'm in pain and need help? It took her into her 20s to even be exposed to the perspective of the opposite sex. We are flip flopping between animalistic desires and higher ethics. Often in conflict with one another. innocent feminin perspectives are incomplete just like the masculine perspectives. Innocents is a misunderstanding of the landscape and a recipy for potential trauma. If a negative event happens, could the trauma be avoided? would a quality education help? Potentially. Would educating men lower assault. Yes. Would educating women have systemic effects? Yes. Educate EVERYONEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

Like i said i was raised well, received a loving childhood. Saying this, i was in does situations many times with women sleeping around me at different points in my life that i was friends with, I can say the hormonal and emotional urges are strong. I didn't act on it, because its wrong on many levels, but i sure masterbated to the mental imagery of it. Are you able to empathize with my experience? Is my sexuality problematic? I thought this was normal. Why is it not male instinct overruling higher cognitive function and ethics? I think this logic breaks down at scale and in the dirty world of survival, I received this education and therefore didn't act, maybe your right. At the same time i was barely hanging on. If a copy of me was placed in 10 000 sceneries, probabilistically i would of acted at least once. By act i mean, touch something. Reinventing the education system will do wonders, proof is in lowered sexual assaults in progressive countries. I agree. While we wait 100 years for that can we be realistic about how to navigate the current altitude?

Silence

The Evan story, she trusted him to sleep next to her. Why? Because she didn't understand him. If she did, she could of taken precautionary measures. That's all i mean by responsibility, making good decisions. She did not understand his male perspective. Can we stop saying now that all women know the male perspective, its trivial and not worth communicating? We need to educate both sides so they can understand each other and themselves. Both can make better wiser decisions. Responsibility not as in its your fault, i mean it as there are degrees of control that everyone has in a given situation. In any situation both sides played the game poorly. This is not about justification, its a probabilistic systemic certainty that some wont. These urges are non trivial and will not disappear with education. Especially at the golden years of 14-20, underdeveloped age. Its not systemically realistic to say men should just control themselves. The system is more complicated then that and a real solution molds/compromise/adapts to the landscape. --- This is the context with the gf i stimulated while sleeping. We where out at the park having a nice evening, joking around, she garbed my junk in public playfully. Had to suppress the laughter, wanted to explode, there where to many people around. Later that night we had sex, the next morning i woke up before her, around the time she would normally wake up, for fun i placed 1 finger on the good spot and just left it there, no motion besides natural body motions and the suppression of my laughter. 10 min in of resting in that position, something starts heating up. Turns out she is having a sex dream, so i take my hand out and watch her for a bit until she naturally wakes up from it. I then explain what has happened, we laughed about it and have sex. Side note: Ya know this could possibly be an ancient practice of some kind, I don't know, its seems effective to stimulate sex dreams. Like sleep sex with a partner you trust and consent to it before hand? Where they guide you into a dream. hmmm this sounds very interesting to explore. Maybe a device can be warn by both partners, that stimulates them at the same time while they sleep, so they can both enter into a dream together. Then wake up to sex. This sound pretty awesome actually. I was not referencing rape, i was referencing urges. Ages 14-20. It implies rape/assault is probabilistically inevitable.

I have never been this misinterpreted before, its baffling. Ill have to rethink how to communicate.

@Etherial Cat If emerald or anyone in does situations had a better grasp of the male perspective they could of better predicted or handled it, maybe the trauma could of also of been avoided because they would not of been completely blind sighted by it. In emeralds response it was clear women have no understanding of the male mind, like the story about Evan (15). Both participants need to be educated equality about each others perspectives, not just the men by teaching them consent. I'm not blaming women in these situations or the men, their both ignorant and clueless. Please do not confuse this with shaming/blaming women. Im not trying to save/change the world with a comment, was simply showing the male perspective in does exact sleep rape situations. And how counterintuitively to women all men go through a phase like this. Being in the same house with your sisters hot friends as they have a sleep over is a VERY sensual intimate experience for a teenage boy. His mind is on FIRE. Then these clueless women (with all respect), allow this boy to sleep in the same room as them. Lack of awareness for both sides of the situation. No amount of education about consent is going to get that kid to keep it in his pants. But this narrative is offensive to women. They don't want to hear it. Both sides need to take responsibility.

@Preety_India All good.

@Preety_India Everything i wroth was fully misinterpreted from many angles and "attacked", claiming that i said things or meant things that i didn't and now I'm being called a misogynist when trying to correct any of it. Its a bit much lol. The best part is when they all high fived each other and complimented each others responses. lmfao

"Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is hatred or contempt for women or girls. It is a way of keeping women at a lower status than men. In other words, misogyny maintains and enforces sexism. Women who reject subordination are punished by misogyny." When did this happen?

I was communicating the mindset of the men that don't act on it. That some women might not realize is even happening. They might think they are not being fantasied about in does situations with their trusted friend that didn't act. I thought this added something. The second point is not advice, its not a justification, i do not recommend it. If you have good connection and you know exactly how your partner will react then its fine. I agree its even better to communicate it before hand. Its also a perspective people might not realize exists. I speak in perspectives. There is no one here. lol

Its interesting how this was misinterpreted. i don't have a position. I was adding to emeralds position. Look closer.

First show them that you fully understand and empathize with their perspective, they need to feel that your on their side, then softly introduce the concept and make them empathize with your perspective. "i understand how you feel" In general your just not a likable guy during these interactions, be likable. Tone of voice is basically everything when dealing with feelers, nothing else matters. I grew up in a feeler green family. This is the way.

I give up.

You've never been a 14-20 year old man. How many times do you think your father or uncle or brother or best friend looked at your ass? How many men and how many times do you think your ass is looked at every day by random people/coworkers? Saying this again to expand on the female perspective. It worst then you guys realize.

"It's selfish and rapey to feel horny and prey on an unconscious body. " @MatteO22 Nearly all men have experience this desire and restrained them selves or suppressed it or let it go or used better judgment to not act on it. I say this to help women understand the male perspective. This is likely hard wired some how and statistically means some men will act on it. I say this so to add to this topic, not to discredit it, broadening our understanding of the whole. I then added a bit of nuance mentioning a context where its acceptable.

@MatteO22 No im not lol. Im saying she is in shock of the male perspective. Everything i said was to add to emeralds testimony by showing the male perspective in these situations. I fully sympathize with the female perspective/struggle. All men have these urges and its shocking for women to even comprehend it.

Not talking about acting on desires and raping women in there sleep, Im saying the desire is there, thats it.

This might be a kneejerk reaction/culture shock to the male perspective.

I'm saying ALL men have strong urges to do these things, single, in these kinds of situations especially younger men. Most restrain themselves. Relationships are different, your already having sex, the urge is no longer there, its instead done as a fun game.

@Etherial Cat They woke up aroused and ready for action. I had a good loving playful relationship with them. At no point did they loss any trust. I think your missing the context, its not black and white. Yep and all men have the urge. Accept both perspectives. If a good looking man is sleeping in your bed, while in a loving relationship... all pretty and relaxed, its very welcoming.

@Emerald I've never done any of these things do to being raised well. But there was definitely a very strong urge to do them when i found my self in any of does situations. Just trying to add to what was said. Its not a blame game, there is something hard wired about this and its very hard to resist. The men at blame are the ones that didn't. Sleeping the same bed with a partner, I've admittedly stimulated them while they slept a few times. It was all in good fun because of consent. But that urge to do this is there regardless of consent. Speaking generally for all men.

Beta women? lol Am i doing it right?

Found this after Leo mentioned that men can have female orgasms. What did he mean exactly by that? What is the technique? "Based on existing research Arcwave knew that the Pacinian pleasure receptors found in the penis are very similar to those found in the clitoris. To be exact these receptors are found in the frenulum – the patch of skin attaching the foreskin to the head of the penis. But why aren’t these cells stimulated during regular masturbation? " -Source It looks like just avoiding stroking and instead stimulate the frenulum long enough is the trick.