Wyze

Has anyone seen the TV series Maniac? One of the main character Annie, is diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. How accurate do you think the portrayal is?

@Arthur I find stage blue with social belonging interesting. I've always thought that was Green as well. Do you think it just manifests differently; Blue belonging is about changing to fit in; where as Green belonging is about fitting in as exactly as who you are?

This was recently talked about on the DailyRevolver podcast. https://www.dailyevolver.com/2018/12/light-shadow-at-higher-stages/

I thought this might be of interest to some of you. I was looking into how shadow self are formed, and this is a new theory from the integral community. What do you guys think?

I don't think its so black and white. Not caring about what other people think of you (so you being independent of others) is a healthy mindset; it means that your happiness is coming from within, not from outside. But not caring at all, as in completely don't give a f about someone else' well-being; this is not a healthy way of life. This will only cause you to disconnect from other people. You should care for people; but be mindful, so you don't over extend yourself.

I think it could be as basic as making parenting classes and psychology classes as part of normal schooling eg life class. If it is talked about during youth about the financial, emotional, physical responsibilities and investment that parenting comes; not only are we going to respect our parents more, but think twice about having children. Schooling (for most part of the world) is about making robotic children atm. I really hope with the development of AI; it could change this.

@brugluiz i think it depends on the upbringing and society the individual lives in. its not so much they "dont want to" but rather there was no opportunity. eg some women are less likely allowed to express their red due to their culture

@tsuki all the system thinking must be working What are people's reaction to this question, in your experience?

@Benoit Jazy I just read through your comments again. I think I get what your saying now. Your asking if even pointing out the difference in POV is egoistic. This is the field of Turquoise - where everything is exactly where it is. So his POV is exactly where his POV needs to be. I think this is true in a sense; however I'm sorry - I am not the best person to answer this, as this is also a question I've been asking myself lately too. Is it ethical to even help?

@Benoit Jazy it'll be nice to hear from a Yellow on how they would respond in this situation. I feel that the ego is when you start imposing your worldview onto others without them asking you. but having a Green view is not egoistic. You are adding 1 more factor into your worldview (emotions). Imagine if this is a Blue vs Orange discussion, and Orange views is that business is the means to an end. While Blue is calling them all sorts of names because Business does not include God. Is the Orange wrong to have his Orange view? No. The other time that I think that can be egotistical is when you force Green solutions (once again imposing your views) onto a situation where another colour solution would be better suited. eg. If you were dealing with a group of Red and they are off killing each other for power - and teaching them Orange starting business won't work, and telling them about Green seeking emotions won't either.

There is no society and their citizens, currently on this planet, that is completely 100% absolutely destructive out of psychopathic tendency. Alot of pain is cause by a mixed cause of inter-generational trauma, bad childhoods or traumatic experiences. Some I believe may have biological psychopathic tendencies, but they are minority. Every society is going have a mix bag of different people. Thats why Spiral Dynamics is a good model to explain - "where majority" of people are at, in any given society.

Its the process of learning in Green. Trial and error. Make mistakes. Hurt yourself and hurt others in your knee jerk response. Upset people. Lose friends. Its all part of the learning. You can't expect Green to be in "God Mode" from day 1. Imagine building a business from scratch is hard for Orange, but for Green, its both hard and painful to dissect every internal emotion and every reaction; every single second of the day. But understand this - Green's intention is good. But the initial method can be crude and crass until they are ready to move on. This is not different from Orange's intention (build wealth), Blue (create order), Red (establish power)

Hey I didn't see this part, below is my reply. This is the reflection of each level and their worldview isnt it? Green sees "emotions" in others as valid cause because of their own understanding and realization of suppressed emotions and emotional invalidation. Orange see "material and intellect" as valid cause because of their own understanding of lack of influence. Blue see "authority" as valid cause because of their own understanding of the time when its all chaos and lack of order. Red see "power" as valid cause because of their own understanding of lack of status and lack of attention. In essence, Green is expressing/judging/criticizing the external world precisely because of their understanding in the field emotions, morals, ethics etc. I think the other stages particularly dislike Stage Green, is because Green is the first stage where the internal holds more value than the external. Its uncomfortable to feel exposed by someone else; who knows where you've been hiding your pain. Cheers

This is the process of learning in Green. Its when all the negative and unsolved emotions of the past comes back to hit you in the face, and the first reaction (if not learnt from the lower levels) is to blame others. The outcome of that is division and labelling the others. Knee jerk reaction to perceived inequality. In Green (the first level) you have to learn to sit with your feeling, and question the inside; and understand what is outside is also within. Its the first level where you learn to stop blaming. One of the key to move on from Green is to practice System Thinking religiously until you internalize how to think differently; like a Blue reading the Bible. The learning process of Orange is mass exploitation of people and natural world. The learning process of Blue is Crusades. The learning process of Red is unjust and unnecessary violence. Each level is where you learn by being the worst of your colour and realize how that no longer serves you anymore, to move on. You cannot deny and blame someone's process.

Here is food for thought. Most of what is called " social root causes" are really psychological harm from childhood and early environments. Which means that how your parents treated you is what you've normalized as normal, global and "healthy" environments. Because anything otherwise will cause to much cognitive dissonance. Sure this is a great strategy to survive your childhood, but not in adulthood. (All stages up to Orange will refuse to do inner child work and shadow work). This becomes very obvious once you move into Green. Why? Because up until Orange, emotional connection did not matter to you. It might be all about achievement, status, power and order. And to partner with someone: well do it by exploiting, luring, forcing or tricking someone. Green understand people - you, me, everyone on this forum is more than a NPC, Everyone is battling inner child or internalized social norms that no longer serves us. We are products that are running scripts of our childhood, which made us shut down to our emotions. Green exists to awaken your emotions, and to help you get out of it, once for all.

@Benoit Jazy hey op, im in Green too. I make many "moral judgements" like you too. Such is a Green life being Green... *shrugs* The way I see it in the case of pointing out moral judgement is because my deep concern for win-win outcomes for ALL PARTY. Say for example: My interpretation of why you did this is because, if this was a F-buddy situations, it doesn't help either party to continue the degradation in the relationship, if your orange friend thinks so lowly of her - not only will your orange friend might lose his benefits, she might go psycho on him too if she knew she was used and bitched about. This essentially is a Global worldview for the safety and future of your friend and his F-buddy. I suspect an Orange friend probably wouldn't disclose he banged a 2/10, but if he did, your "suppose" to validate him with a "win-lose" Orange response? I think the key in understand and integrate Green (to move onto Yellow), isn't to degrade your own feeling, concerns and an empathetic worldview, but to understand lower tiers can't naturally see/understand win-win scenarios include emotions too. The egoistic exists in response and how you respond eg. if you blurt your thoughts out without the concern and enquiry of where his at and why his is at where he is. But you are not egoistic for having your views. And if he was waiting for a response from you anyway, you have the right to express your Green views rather than lie to meet his Orange view.

@Nahm I've always wondered just how much mass culture plays out in the anti-social vs pro-social dynamics. If the gene for psychopathy exists, just how much of the behaviour is from the environment. Theres another category, the narcissists; then we also have PTSD, CPTSD and inter-generational trauma; We also have ALOT of misdiagnosed and under diagnosed people on the autistic spectrum. All of these can be mistaken for psychopath due to "lack of empathy".

I honestly don't have an answer sorry. Here is a bit of research. This study is a bit old, but it illustrates the brain difference in psychopathy. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-neuroscientist-who-discovered-he-was-a-psychopath-180947814/ @Equanimitize

Venus Project. If anyone have heard of it. Wondering what your opinion on this? What is the major colour on the spiral dynamics, for it to become this place?

@Mu_ @Emerald What do you think the fundamental ethical stance should be? To help humans or not to help? To encourage development or not?

I think in the case of children raised in narcissistic family dynamics; i would say your statement is true. Those children often become narcissists or have various degree of narcissistic behaviour due to modelling and survival. But they may or may not develop prosocial value system later on. However, there are individuals whose brain function; purely biological that have gone haywire since birth or some sort of accident. They did not develop a prosocial recognition, and cannot develop a prosocial value system. I think this is the true definition of a psychopath. I agree on the fact that boundaries is probably the best defense.

@Winter up to you, but its like saying, "I will never use my left leg". Just saying...

@ChrisZoZo yeah @Emerald @Serotoninluv I see the same thing, it also happens with some Yellows I talk too. Its like they have a quiet cognitive empathy, so they can understand where the person is coming from and in its context. But unless that is vocalized, it can look/feel like lack of empathy. I think that was what she was reacting to. Greens feels first; and it feels very invalidating.

The society will need to go full green first; with green ideologies as the norm. And instead we see so any anti-green speakers popping up. I don't know how we are going to transition into Yellow. (I love to live and see what a Yellow society looks like)

I find myself in similar situations. I think its to do with our natural curiosity to see the root/depth/truth/accuracy of a situation. I tend to question not because I am questioning their authority, but because I am naturally curious and wants to see the bigger picture. Its how I learn. I haven't developed a way to reduce this conflict, but I think part of the solution is to prime our answer. "just out of curiosity, where did you find that article" or "just wondering, what made you believe that article" Let me know if that works.