Joshe

Yes, I was saying the majority of people who use the argument are full of shit, and without knowing you, I have to default you into that bucket as well. Nothing personal, it's just in my experience as a man, who has deconstructed countless ego games, I'm calling it bullshit, but maybe you are that .01%, which I left room for. I am consciously projecting my own value system onto all this, and I'm aware I could just be dealing with an alien value system not driven by ego. If that's truly the case, I'm sorry if I've offended you. If it's any consolation, since you're an Actualized.org VIP, I put your odds at 1-100 instead of 1-10000. Lol You and every other man. If you spread a 5 open on a bed and right next to her a 10 and say "which do you prefer?", 99% will choose the 10. Congrats on being special. We're all "lovers of beauty" in this regard. Status and ego mostly disappear here while the animal takes over. Status and ego come into play when you start with this pretentious, elitist game of acting like your appreciation for beauty is so profound and special that it compels you to seek out only 9s and 10s. This only makes sense if you yourself are 8-10 or have a very oddball value system. Yes, I have a dick myself. I remember asking my mom why my pee pee got hard when I saw a man kiss a woman in her bra on Cinemax when I was 4. I used to fantasize about saving my pretty kindergarten teacher from falling off a rooftop and then she lets me play with her tits. I also remember approaching pretty girls in 4k to ask them if they liked me better than some other dude. So of course I know about being attracted to females before status comes into play. Again, the natural impulse is fine. It's the pretentious ego game of "Only the Finest" that I'm mocking. Here's the ego game I intuit is in play: Again, if that's not you, I apologize. But keep in mind, the ego is sneaky and very deceptive. How can you be sure it's not playing this game with you? It sure plays it with many others.

Yes, but I'm not sure how it could be any other way really. We see things as more or less this or that. I have a cute dog, he's not an ugly dog. He's like a 9. lol

We all know what an ugly person is and what a beautiful person is from our culture's perspective. It's possible for us as individuals to find something ugly or beautiful that is in disagreement with our culture's perspective, but this doesn't negate the culture's perspective. This is the basis of the scale. Whether it goes spoken or unspoken, it does exist. But I agree, it's not a very useful scale, although we're getting some use out of it now. lol.

Well yeah, but none of this is a problem for these guys, and of course they're the exception to most of what I've been saying. For everyone else, I believe people should be content getting in where they fit in and just letting that be that. If you wind up punching above your weight, great. Punching down, no problem if it makes you happy. But if you're a 6, sure, you can aim for a 10, but don't have it as some unrealistic standard or grand prize that you constantly chase. My claim is this is pathological/unhealthy. It just seems immature/unhealthy that grown men would take such a pursuit seriously. These pickup guys suggest investing thousands of hours into honing these skills. This is an absurd waste of time and life. And all in the name of "appreciating beauty". I don't buy it. Even if I did, I would hard disagree on this as a way of life or serious hobby. Seems hedonistic and weak, like you got your priorities all messed up.

I agree that most men would be happiest with an 8, but every man going after an 8 is untenable as 79% of men are themselves not an 8. Of course the analogy breaks down at some point but the main idea is the ego is usually the driver in "needing" the absolute best. The base needs could easily be met with an average looking chick, the same way that a typical sedan covers the need to get from A to B. 99.999% of the time, it's the ego that wants a Lambo, and when someone who wants a Lambo hears this, they rationalize their desire by saying things like "I just admire beauty and cool stuff" or something like that. What does the ego get? High-status, a feeling of superiority, a boost to identity, a story to tell. It’s not about the need for transportation, it’s about transformation. The ego wants to arrive envied, admired, and validated. Just like the guy who insists he can only feel fulfilled with 9s and 10s, what he’s really chasing is confirmation that he’s valuable, worthy, powerful. It's easy to confuse validation with fulfillment. Ego hijacks primal needs, chasing beauty, success, admiration, under the illusion of “standards” and "needs". Many aspirations are not rooted in genuine need or deep appreciation, but a quest for status and self-worth.

Agreed. It’s like wanting a Lamborghini because of how special it can make you feel via status signaling, irrespective of its functional impact on you. And they would just say “There’s nothing wrong with being a lover of beautiful cars. Some men just have higher standards than others and want to be up close and personal to beautiful configurations of fiberglass and metal. Not all men are satisfied with run of the mill sedans”. And of course they think lambo seeking is a higher form of existence, placing them atop the mental hierarchy of men. Completely wrapped up in ego. IMO, if you refuse to or can’t be content with an average looking girl, there’s very likely some pathology to explore or trauma to resolve.

@Emerald I gotcha. So his beard wasn’t grey enough 😂. I actually think there are some of the same elements you describe in your attraction to an older male in my attraction to an older female. Interesting.

Lol, nah. I actually look goofy AF for the most part. I could look like a 6.5 or 7 in certain light with a hat (I'm bald with a weird shaped head) while in my prime, but even this might be too high. Girls were attracted to me when I was younger, but they all report it wasn't so much my looks as it was my demeanor, attitude, mystic, allure, or whatever. TBF, I did have a leg up. My leg up was being a natural at reading people and their perceptions, thus knowing how to come off, and using subtle non-verbal communication to lure people in. Also, largely smiling, laughing, coming off as a confident, safe, fun, easy-to-approach person who looks like could engage them in an interesting conversation. All of this has to be balanced perfectly, and I just understood it intuitively, so that was my leg up. HealthyGamer isn't particularly attractive and he reports the same eye contact escalation that I've always noticed.

IME, this is precisely how it's always worked. You catch a girl looking or she catches you, then someone looks away. It happens again until it's known, then comes initial comms. It's how girls let you know they want you to talk to them. It's in like every movie ever, no?

Damn, did he get his video notes from this thread? Even with all the modern technology, it seems getting face to face with your friends would still be the thing most teens would want to do. My guess is there's still a lot of face-to-face interaction, just with much smaller social circles. Then, on top of that, social media and dating apps have caused a runaway effect with dating standards. It seems the collective ego has been exacerbated by the Gram and things like this, so this itself would make girls not even want to be in the same vicinity with anyone less than a 7, else she lose social status, and the guys pick up on this and are understandably fucked up by it. Is this largely what's happening? Dwindling face-to-face interaction and runaway dating standards? Reminds me of that elk species that went extinct because the females would only mate with the males who had the largest horns. The horns got so big it killed off the species. lol.

Yeah, that's funny. It's like, dude, your hay day is over. Go home. Lol. Or at the least go hang by the bar and don't be imposing your old ass onto young women. I suppose it's different for guys though. I actually enjoyed women aged 35-50 when I was in my mid twenties. Many of them are happy to have flings with young guys, without demanding all the attention younger women usually require. They're much more fun too, as they're more mature, witty, and better at flirting and being sexy. They could actually teach me something. Thinking back on it, those were my favorite. When I was the one being picked up by an experienced woman. Highly recommend older chicks.

Right. I spent my teen years in pickup manipulation mode and could manipulate the shit out of people. I could even talk my buddies into talking their girls into sleeping with me, and I'd tell them what to say. It was sick and very unhealthy and led to thoroughly ruining my reputation in my hometown. I still experience shame about all this. Anyway, I moved to a new town, cut out all the bullshit, started fresh, and things got better. As far as I can see, there is no healthy way to gather and hold in mind all the knowledge of how to manipulate women, with the intent to manipulate them like your puppet, and to have a healthy conscience. We've seen a few of the justifications for such behavior in this thread, and there are many more, but it's all obviously bullshit. There comes a time when you realize you should treat women with respect and not take advantage of them for your own selfish gain. I just turned down sex because I know in return, I'm expected to give my time and attention, which I'm not willing to do, so I'm not going to take something from her and not give her what I know she wants in return. I suppose if you're engaging with the bottom of the barrel in terms of female character, or if having random flings and transactional sex is for her a way of life, or nothing serious and she doesn't expect anything from you besides sex, then there is no problem, but I don't come across many women that fit this bill. It's understandable that young men would engage in such activities, but to continue them well into adulthood is obviously problematic and there's no reasonable justification for it, at least not for 99.999% of men. You could make a pie chart of the reasons grown men keep doing this, but you'd need a microscope to find the part labeled "healthy motivation."

The timing is suspicious. As soon as Elon starts a new party, Trump admin gets out in front of the Epstein allegations.

I don’t live that life anymore. Grew out of it, but even still, I’d stick with the old people. Have fun collecting your trophies. Miami explains a lot. Super competitive ethos. Trophies are important in Miami. Cringe city.

I didn’t mean to imply you’d be bagging 10s, nor that any of it is a total cake walk. Coming out of your shell is the first step. And that step is a whole lot easier when you’re not operating from a gaming other people mindset, and turns out, makes getting laid relatively easy. This should be common sense for a self-aware adult. Also, the guys who are struggling should be happy to start from the bottom and not be expecting to pull dimes. Who in their right mind thinks you start at the top? Also, ideally, one would transcend their unconscious pursuit of human female trophies by the time they hit 30. If you’re over 30 and still taking pickup seriously, to the point where you study the mating habits and social circles of dime pieces, you got issues. Very likely over-compensating for your earlier years. I kept trophies for a long time. Pictures and videos of my conquests. Then I became a big boy and deleted them from my hard drive.

Ignorance is bliss when you livin’ butt to tip Irrelevant but funny sex humor.

I had to bend it to my will. 😆 You gotta find a good bar. When I was 21, I was socially anxious but I decided to start going to a bar every Friday and Saturday night. I'd sit by myself and just be nice and polite to people and warm up slowly to them. Over time, I built a reputation with the locals and became quite popular there. It got the point when I'd walk in, if the bar was packed, there'd be like 7 different people all across the place trying to get me to come hang with them (DHV, amirite?). Building a reputation like this is good for self-esteem and confidence, so I think this is a great place to start for guys who feel socially awkward and anxious, as it removes all the pickup anxiety bullshit. Just focus on being social and warm with people and getting laid will happen naturally. Also, it's good for just learning how to have conversations and connect with people. I sat there many nights just having deep conversations with all sorts of people. They weren't used to having such deep conversations and they loved me for it. I spent many nights just conversing with old men and women, and I enjoyed it. Had hundreds, if not thousands of conversations and hardly ever had to deal with approach anxiety, because things would just unfold organically. So like I said, it's the easy path. The key is to just open up and be friendly, smile a lot, laugh hard, and have fun. You have to calibrate it but this should be the default, and people will like you and the fuzz will flow.

This needs a dedicated thread.

Thanks for explaining @Ulax! I understand your position now, and I agree with most of what you said.

Yes, they get in their own way. The best thing for them to do is just go get a girlfriend and have sex a thousand times so they can stop obsessing about it. There's no need to worry about pickup and female psychology and all this bullshit. You just go put yourself around people and learn to have fun and be yourself. Sooner or later, a girl will give you a look. Don't respond to it. Wait for another look, then smile or use a more intense gaze to acknowledge her. Before long, you'll have your pecker up in some wet stuff. You don't even have to approach. All you have to do is talk to them from across the bar or where ever you are. I found they actually like that you make your first communication with them from a distance but it should be a neutral topic, no teasing or pickup line. Something as simple as "holy shit, did you see that?" invites her in. If she doesn't want to come, put her out of your mind and continue to have fun. She just might wind up at your side 20 minutes later. It's really that simple. Just go out with a goal to have fun, not get laid. Girls are attracted to fun, laughter, and easy-going demeanor. Smile and laugh a lot, and it's impossible to not get laid. If you go to a bar and take up space (not like a clown) and laugh loudly (but not too loud) and crack jokes, every woman in the place will wonder about you. Keep sex in the very back of your mind, not the front. Use something in the environment as a way to connect, such as the music jukebox, dart, pool, or ring game. Mostly joke, discuss things in the environment, tease once or twice only, and ask questions in between. Don't try to be cool, she can smell your bullshit. Don't be afraid of silence and actually don't care if she walks away and never comes back. You need to build a reputation of being fun and easy-going, not a needy try-hard. Bars are great for getting laid and practicing your social skills. Not nightclubs, as there's too much going on. This is the easy path to getting the pecker wet, but feel free to analyze hundreds of hours of female psychology and pickup content if that's more important than actually getting some puss.

True for me.

You have a point. Society would not have made it to where it is today if every human were concerned with sitting on their spiritual cushion. We need asleep people to work construction because it will be hard to build cities with awake people. And we need asleep people to procreate the construction workers. Everything is for everything else. You get in where fit in.

Haha, bro, millions of people were correct. I’m not a partisan and I’ve warning about Trump since he was elected in 2016. It wasn’t some hard thing to see that you don’t put that vile and rotten of a character in the position of the presidency. The hard thing to see was why it was so hard for millions of others to not see. It’s all understood now though. We know the psychology of the Christians, the alpha males, the libertarians, the bigots, the enlightened centrist, and many other flavors of idiocy. Trump compelled many to understand and flesh out low consciousness. This is one good thing that came from him.

Too much thinking about how you’re superior to green has made you think one who recognizes this truth sees no other nuance.

Here comes high-horse Aurum. “purely bad faith” is a straw man. We’re saying he is aware of the epistemic and rhetorical tactics he’s deploying to protect his intellectual position whilst it crumbles, and he’s doing it for money and fame, all the while knowing exactly what he is doing. This is called “bad faith”, not “purely bad faith”. The above statement is true. If you reject it, you damage your intellectual tower in the sky.