Consilience

This is spot on. You need a deep desire to actually awaken. But in the end, even that desire is extinguished. It could be seen as contradictory, but it’s actually not.

This silliness is the equivalent of chasing after truth, and is already what you’re unconsciously attempting by going for “higher truths.” Whether you see the relationship between your attempts at going for these higher truths as a function of your suffering, or not is contingent upon the clarity you have about the subtle, inner workings of your mind. And Ill just spoil something - psychedelics aint going to give you the clarity to perceive the ultra subtle dynamics Im speaking about.

Actually face it. The best way to do this is with mindfulness so practicing being with pain while in meditation. You could also use methods such as exercise or cold showers, but these doesn't train the mind as effectively as contemplative practice.

Your entire life is already built around deep, unconscious manipulation tactics to minimize suffering, and maximize happiness. To think you're not already trying to eradicate suffering is built out of delusion and a lack of clear seeing into your direct experience. Moreover, while I don't actually disagree that there is a deep intelligence and beauty to suffering, it's by what is gained through its ending that is only possible through its arising that gives it so much beauty. Suffering for the sake of suffering is hell. If you think otherwise, you have not suffered deeply enough and do not have the awareness capable of feeling into the collective suffering of other beings. When you suffer deeply, or actually step into the collective suffering of all beings, whether through psychedelics or meditation, the path to end suffering starts to become clear. And again, suffering itself is a sign of delusion, so if one values truth or happiness, no matter which, suffering is a sign that there is a lack of seeing reality. Yep 100%. Strong determination sitting has made this overwhelming clear in my own experience. It is actually amazing. It has nothing to do with pain suppression and everything to do with fully experiencing the pain so completely, it becomes a non-problem.

You need to experience how the felt sensate perceptual feeling of separation is itself a form of thought. This thought does not manifest as verbal talk or mental imagery, but as an uncognized process of perceptual building. The feeling of solidity and that you are this static object is itself a thought that comes from ignorance of the nature of direct experience, most specifically the nature of impermanence. I would recommend Shinzen’s See Hear Feel technique, and specifically the “flow” and “space” categories, as these are really useful towards breaking down this ignorance and opening experience into how it actually is - one unified, interconnected, non-dual flow. Samanari Jayasara’s Wisdom of the Masters YouTube channel is also great to use as guided meditations, however it’s very advanced material and may not click as easily as something very tangible and practice like Shinzen’s stuff.

The first part is fair, they’re are those who are very gifted without effort or practice. But to setup this dichotomy - you’re either naturally gifted or meditation is useless - is asinine. Yes the dog example points to the value of this human life, just how precious it is to be born as a human. We, unlike a dog, have the capacity for enlightenment. Moreover, the brain is a uniquely malleable organ compared to the rest of the body. To use genetics as an argument for some kind of inherent, static limitation of the mind is not only incredibly close-minded, it’s implicitly materialistic. The mind’s capacity for transformation is vast, grandiose. Psychedelics prove this. And for those unafraid of industrial grade practice, who see the futility and insanity of how most of us live, even those who think they’re into serious spirituality, those beings see this capacity for transformation through manual practice and their resulting direct experience.

@PedroCedro Dude he’s one of the most advanced yogis on the forum… @Shambhu is most certainly speaking from experience lol.

As someone who is currently living with a group of contemplatives, semi-monastics, this is simply not what I observe. This genetics idea is a belief you’ve adopted from Leo and now parrot but it is not grounded in your direct experience. Well perhaps that’s why you haven't had profound, mind blowing, life altering results from meditation. I haven't met a single person who’s actually and completely thrown themselves into meditation who hasn’t had profound results. I would say many. The people who spend as much time as Mooji, Sadhguru, or the Dalai Lama are typically so rare and so off the radar of the mainstream, you’d never encounter them. But they do exist. Most of these kinds of people aren’t leading communities or engaging in the public in the same way.

Where it seems most people misunderstand “form” on this forum is that form is non-existent. If the mind is actually hyper concentrated on the moment by moment experience of reality, it will be observed that all perception is like quicksand. The moment any, ANY, “form” appears, in that same moment it’s already gone. The only reason “form” appears as form at all is because of the mind. The mind, through the mechanism of memory, creates a lightening fast mirage of preceding moments and super imposes these memories on-top of the current aggregation of perception, giving rise to a false sense of solidity through an entanglement of outer and inner perceptive experiences. When one actually examines the actuality of form, there is quite literally nothing there. Any thing you think you can grasp is already gone. If the mind were to actually see reality clearly, all possibility of any substantiality, solidity, FORM, would be seen as an impossibility. Form is really just a moment by moment flickering of totally unique arising and passing perceptive aggregates superimposed by the mind’s memory of “prior” moments. When one’s attention attempts to grasp onto anything, it cannot if reality is seem clearly - it’s all already gone. Yet this isn’t even the deepest ramifications of what can be said when one actually observes reality. Because even time loses its solidity and the idea of prior moments that could have been superimposed is directly experienced as an even deeper, more subtle form of ignorance. So when someone thinks consciousness can change, or states are all that exist, this is a conclusion derived out of the ignorance of the nature of all states, which is that the construction of a state at all, ‘how things are appearing to be,’ is only possible through a misunderstanding of the actuality of one’s direct experience. At the highest level, the only thing that can be said to be real is that which does not change, because all that is changing is not actually changing, but completely non-existent, a pure illusion. Yet something remains.

Or a massive amount of work in a short period of time most are unwilling to do yet are fully capable of doing if we’re only work a 40 hour work week. This natural talent has less to do with one’s response to meditation and much more to do with one’s faith, openness and diligence in the practice. Those that practice diligently, going on retreats regularly, strong daily practice, working with a teacher, studying, etc. are the ones who see the real fruit of the meditative path. If someone happens to have the natural talent of seeing and having faith in the practice, has a natural talent of discipline and diligence, has the natural talent of having the humility and openness to work with a teacher, yeah, huge factor. As far as one’s response to the practice being driven by “talent” that is very suspicious from my pov. Ive never met a genuine sage who hasnt worked their ass off.

Preparatory practices yes. The highest meditation teachings and instructions are not about manipulating one’s state, but resting in the recognition of the “Buddha Nature” of all states. Usually if one hasn’t adequately and yes, relatively, “purified” their mind, this recognition is shallow and swamped in self deception. This type self-deception is rampant in the Neo Advaita community, for example.

This is not my direct experience, at all. Sounds like you’ve had bad teachers and/or haven’t explored meditation very deeply.

@GreenWoods Where in the world are you grtting this data from? Have you spent time in monasteries with monks, have you gone on retreats that are predominantly monks, how many retreats have you even been on, and how many hours have you actually meditated? It’s shocking how many people here who are anti meditation leading to enlightenment are just parroting beliefs without any real direct experience to back it up.

You fundamentally misunderstand the nature of suffering man. This comment and your prior calling those who wish to end suffering cowardice is evidence of this.

@ardacigin Thank you for such a clear, concise and helpful message friend. I have no doubt it will resonate with many. Much love ❤️

@Leo Gura Your standards of the enlightened mind and in general, enlightenment, are way too low.

Ironically, it partially stems from my use of psychedelics, having very profound past life experiences. These experiences deeply opened my mind up to the possibility of this whole cyclical nature of death and birth. As I've further meditated on and contemplated the possibility of rebirth, I've realized the only reasons Id hold death as some kind of permanent end is from cultural programing. The fact of the matter is, consciousness already manifested as as this individuated form once, why wouldn't it happen again? It's already happened. To claim it wouldn't happen again actually goes against what's already happened, ie a spontaneous emergence of perception and life as this individual we identify with. Couple this logical analysis with the direct experience of past, parallel, and future life experiences I've had with psychedelics and in meditation, and it just becomes so obvious this single lifetime isn't in anyway indicative of the torrent of consciousness. How do I know it's true? I cannot know with the logical, egoic mind whether rebirth is true. When stepping into states of deep samadhi and openness, it stops being a question though. Moment by moment, life and death are blinking into and out of existence, as existence. One can start to penetrate this dynamic birth death process as being driven by one's karma. To link the process of karma and the existence/nature of mind to the physical body would be to deeply misunderstand the existence/nature of mind, to deeply misunderstand one's direct experience. There are levels of mind that are very much affiliated and karmically intertwined with this current physical body, but from my own experience, there are also deeper, more primordial all encompassing depths of mind that still function through sankharas that are independent (yet still inextricably connected with) the physical body. This whole mechanism of mind that is deeper than the surface of mind typically associated with the physical body is what drives birth and death. If this whole mind actually relinquished itself, what would unfold is a complete union with God. This is what happens on 5-MeO. Mind at ALL levels completely drops away. Yet because psychedelics numb the mind, in a sense, the sankharas driving this whole process of egoic identification and self clinging (a clinging so so so much deeper than the nonsense Neo Advaita espouses) are not uprooted. Hence they regrow, return, reconsolidate. Meditation, on the other hand, through means that I currently do not understand due to a lack of training, can uproot these sankharas. How do I know all of this? Through so much careful examination of my direct experience. At this point, multiple thousands of hours of meditation & contemplation. I'm still not 100% clear on all of this, and am open to being wrong, but this is what I've seen through my past with psychedelics, and a maturing, deepening, and clarification of view from manual practice. Yeah this seems to match my experience as well. In Buddhist terms, this is talking about the distinction between the path of an Arahant and Bodhisattva. I've always been more drawn to the path of the Bodhisattva, the kind of consciousness that willingly returns to try and help others rather than extinguishing the whole thing and permanently merging back into the Godhead beyond existence and non-existence. To be honest though, the type of consciousness an Arahant or Bodhisattva possess is so far beyond where I am on the path I cannot really comment on what would motivate an Arahant or Bodhisattva. I would just say, be careful dismissing the Arahant's ambition; it's coming from an incomprehensibly deep place of wisdom and clarity. Both paths are immeasurably noble, in their own way.

My own direct experiencing watching the subtle ways psychedelics have left my energy body feeling weeks post an intense trip and how the mind and attention is less clear and precise following a trip. Even though there is certainly the classic after glow effects on the surface of perception, in the depths of extremely subtle mental activity, there is this underlying dis-harmonization effect I started to discover after trip sessions that I just literally never noticed because of a lack of meditation experience. It’s very hard to describe.

Not exactly the same. In the thread you’re asking about if psychedelics have specific karmic consequences. What Im claiming is psychedelics do not uproot the karma that leads to suffering in future lives. However, yeah that thread is extremely fascinating and along the same lines. What Ive seen on this forum is psychedelics promote a kind of greed and delusion that will 100% have karmic consequences. There are already consequences in this single life, never mind the immeasurable incarnations waiting for us. The type of purification meditation facilitates is so much subtler than anyone without serious contemplative training can imagine or access. Im only just now beginning to truly appreciate it. Psychedelics are too energetically overwhelming to even begin to understand the nuances of these subtle sankharas. Yet we can rest assured, the nature of these sankharas is that they keep going and going and going and going, life after life after life, until the point is finally understood. It’s a beautiful, immaculate, but horrifying design when seen with true wisdom and treated with reverence.

Besides one of these methods being wildly more sustainable and accessible, there may be energetic consequences on the energy body and mind with chronic use of psychedelics as well as the fact that they aren’t uprooting karma in the same way meditation does, which could have very real, very painful consequences in future incarnations. In general I do agree though. But from what I see from most psychonauts, they massively undervalue meditation. Somehow even the serious one’s like Leo do as well. It’s a huge and apparently common trap one can deceive themselves into.

At the moment of physical death, all of this philosophizing, all of the psychedelic highs, all of the egoic titillation will be gone, completely gone. All that remains is the karmic momentum of the mind, the true mind that generates reality. The momentum of this mind is what facilitates the expression of a new incarnation. If you haven’t noticed, the overwhelming majority of life is a just a bombardment of misery, stress, pain, and suffering. It is a very, VERY, rare gift to be given a life capable of aspiring to enlightenment, to abide in true happiness and truth. If one hasn’t actually cultivated and purified their minds, the likelihood of getting another shot at walking the path is slim. Again, look at the overwhelming majority of humans and other life forms. Devilish delusion and stress reign supreme. To actually begin walking the path towards truth, to actually begin transforming the mind, is an ineffable gift and the only thing you’d take with you at the moment of physical death. All of these psychedelic highs, no more significant than dust.

Do you see how utterly childish and egoic this is? It’s actually profound and a great teaching for those who can see with wisdom.

Likewise, truth doesn't care at all if you're on a peak 5-MeO trip or a meth addict. There are no levels or degrees to what is Absolute. We're talking in circles. I've said this before and I'll say it again, in 10 years when you're still having to take 5-MeO to access God, we'll see who's "much more conscious." I pray there are those on this forum that see through the delusion.

If you understood the horror of rebirth and how really, the only thing you can take with you is the quality of your karma, you'd have a different perspective on the necessity of walking the path. Also, this 'you' you're referring to is just self clinging, pure ego. Best to let go of self referential thought. If you're living an egoic and stressed life, you haven't realized God. The end of suffering and the realization of the nature of reality go hand in hand.

Accessing absolute truth means your mind doesn't suffer. So no it's not pretty easy. Again, try sitting for 2 hours. Watch as your addict like mind clings to itself, its addictions, and cuts itself off from this "easily accessible" absolute truth. I'm not making the claim it's easy to access, I'm making the claim that it is beyond all distinction, duality, levels, and peak/mundane experiences. It makes peak meditative and psychedelic experiences obsolete. To say this moment is not the highest expression or understanding of God is to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of God.