Consilience

It’s very similar to the do nothing technique but ever so slightly more intentional, in my experience. You’re meditating on the nature of mind/on awareness itself without the mind wandering in distraction. And given that “awareness” or “consciousness” are the gateways to God, eventually the mind starts to disintegrate in the spaciousness. However, standard mindfulness actually does lead to the same place but from a different angle. In Shinzen’s system he talks about this spaciousness of a theme perception can take on. As we continue to apply mindfulness, experience itself becomes feather light and paper thin, Shinzen calls this spaciousness. In this way, perception itself is seen as being non other than awareness. Each route may be beneficial depending on various mental factors at the time of practice.

Mahamudra/Dzogchen type practices are my go to. But after a certain point, even vipassana, or jhana practices work, and even further, one just starts walking around seeing the God like beauty in everything, everyone, across all states, even pain and emotional distress. Vital at this point to keep going.

From what I can tell, yes sober meditation is more effective than meditating while on psychedelics if our goal is training the mind, recognizing truth while sober. Meditating while on psychedelics may provide a deeper relative state and higher short term understanding. Please note this is specific to where Im at. Meditating on psychedelics may be exactly what a noobie needs to jump start their sober practice but for an advanced meditator, it seems unlikely. As far as healing, yes absolutely. But there comes a point on the healing journey where healing is no longer a limiting bottleneck for deepening one’s awakening. We’ll always have healing to do, we’ll always have “growing up” to do. So in that sense, psychedelics could theoretically always have a place on the path. The huge error is believing them to be a viable path to an authentic Awakening in contrast with healing.

Yes, obviously. Ive taken multiple biochemistry classes in university discussing genetics, one focused on molecular genetics. I have a bachelors of science in nutritional science. The point is that even though, for example, a being on the path to enlightenment may have a certain genetic makeup based on their mother and father, this doesn’t mean the mother and father are on the path, or ready for the path. What goes into taking on and succeeding with enlightenment is so much more multifaceted than to reduced it to some materialistic framework like “genetics.” Not only is this a gross simplification within the materialistic framework, completely ignoring things like epigenetics, volition, will, the fact that the brain is the most malleable organ in the human body, but it ignores other possibilities, substances not yet discovered through scientific investigation, such as chakras, the energy body, etc. The point is when attempting to explain away spiritual success with the “genetics” argument is, when rationally and clearly examined, completely illogical and nothing more than an egoic defense mechanism. Do genetics play a role? Yes obviously. The question is to what extent and what are the precise factors to awakening and what constitutes the availability of these factors? Claiming genetics as the basis is a misunderstanding of these factors and marred in lack of direct experience as well as an openmindedness about the possibilities of what creates the experience of being a human at all.

This is actually a good point. Totally obvious too… not sure how I never thought of this or no one’s mentioned it haha. It’s wild how incessantly the ego will go to avoid spiritual practice. Also wild how arrogant the ego is to think it understands spiritual practice without actually having dived in and explored. Imagine an undergrad freshman biology major thinking it knows more than a biologist with a PhD claiming that of this study and experimentation is useless, a waste of time, and won’t go anywhere towards understanding biology.

The same way I can doubt scientific materialism but “believe” in qualia. One is belief, one is direct experience. Direct experience of past lives, direct experience of the moment by moment birth death/expansion contraction process of a self being created by mind along with the recognition that this activity of mind is not contingent on this physical body. This activity of mind is the “mind of god”, utterly beyond body or the contents of mind; it is a western fantasy, belief system, system of indoctrination that death means this mind ceases. The individual self “ceases” as all memories, feelings, sensations of me and mine vanish, but this is not the mind, this is not the context out of which existence appeared. That context is unaffected by physical death. Studying dependent origination provides a framework for why a single death would not end the cycle of birth and death. Direct experience verifies it. Edit: also where did I say I doubt genetics exactly? This is a complex topic, way more nuanced than “I believe in genetics” or “I doubt genetics.”

Quite deeply in a way, however still have lifetimes to fully awaken. Direct experience is where the answer comes from though. Loneliness as it’s cognized by the human mind is of the nature of God, as is everything, but itself cannot compare to God’s absolute nature. The absolute just dwarfs any and all defilements of mind, all suffering, there is only peace free from elaboration, totally lucid, infinite, and empty.

Egoic projection

Where did this understanding come from?

In the beginning, for some beings, myself included, yes. But after a certain point, one outgrows the need for frequent tripping. For example, the last dozen or so of my trips have left me with the intrinsic understanding that I would have been better off spending those 8-12 hours meditating. This originates from the clear seeing that meditation liberates, uproots, cultivates, purifies, and clarifies, and while psychedelics do as well during the trip, the shifts in consciousness do not last. That and as has been mentioned elsewhere, state shifting is ultimately a dead end, even with manual practice. There are other reasons besides awakening to want to transform the mind though into higher states, such as bodhichitta. Part of the practice is becoming extremely intimate with the 1st noble truth. So yes, the whole point is to abide in this very discomfort aka suffering! It’s amazing how Leo totally missed this point. This suffering is precisely what motivates us practice harder. It helps though having good instructions and learning how to actually generate wholesome states of mind like happiness, compassion, metta, peace. This is why I often recommend The Mind Illuminated, because no other book or method helped me more with developing extremely powerful wholesome states while sober. You’ll probably discover other spatial qualities to suffering as your practice matures, besides a single knot. Yes, usually contractions in the energy body are origin points of suffering, clinging/craving/aversion. Psychedelics are so energetically overwhelming they blow apart the energy body which is both their strength and danger. This infinite spacial expanse of the energy body helps breakdown egoic mind patterns and identification. It’s hard for me to vouch for 30-60 minutes at this point. Personally, Ive gone on 7 meditation retreats in the last 2.5 years and do formal practice 4-5 hours per day through silent sitting, chanting, and mindful eating at the community Im living with (Monastic Academy for the Preservation of Life on Earth). Ive kind of completely thrown myself into the practice and attribute my success with it because of these efforts. But even before MAPLE, I was doing retreats and meditating 2 hours/day. Most people who don’t succeed with meditation either 1) dont go on retreats, 2) don’t have good instructions for techniques, or 3) don’t practice hard enough to see results and usually all 3. I would disagree with this. Meditation offers immediate relief. Ive observed this with many beginners I help as well as in my own experience. I was practice meditation 1 hour/day for around 1.5 years before ever trying psychedelics and therefore, had a strong practice before ever experiencing truly radical, god like states of consciousness.

This is spot on. You need a deep desire to actually awaken. But in the end, even that desire is extinguished. It could be seen as contradictory, but it’s actually not.

This silliness is the equivalent of chasing after truth, and is already what you’re unconsciously attempting by going for “higher truths.” Whether you see the relationship between your attempts at going for these higher truths as a function of your suffering, or not is contingent upon the clarity you have about the subtle, inner workings of your mind. And Ill just spoil something - psychedelics aint going to give you the clarity to perceive the ultra subtle dynamics Im speaking about.

Actually face it. The best way to do this is with mindfulness so practicing being with pain while in meditation. You could also use methods such as exercise or cold showers, but these doesn't train the mind as effectively as contemplative practice.

Your entire life is already built around deep, unconscious manipulation tactics to minimize suffering, and maximize happiness. To think you're not already trying to eradicate suffering is built out of delusion and a lack of clear seeing into your direct experience. Moreover, while I don't actually disagree that there is a deep intelligence and beauty to suffering, it's by what is gained through its ending that is only possible through its arising that gives it so much beauty. Suffering for the sake of suffering is hell. If you think otherwise, you have not suffered deeply enough and do not have the awareness capable of feeling into the collective suffering of other beings. When you suffer deeply, or actually step into the collective suffering of all beings, whether through psychedelics or meditation, the path to end suffering starts to become clear. And again, suffering itself is a sign of delusion, so if one values truth or happiness, no matter which, suffering is a sign that there is a lack of seeing reality. Yep 100%. Strong determination sitting has made this overwhelming clear in my own experience. It is actually amazing. It has nothing to do with pain suppression and everything to do with fully experiencing the pain so completely, it becomes a non-problem.

You need to experience how the felt sensate perceptual feeling of separation is itself a form of thought. This thought does not manifest as verbal talk or mental imagery, but as an uncognized process of perceptual building. The feeling of solidity and that you are this static object is itself a thought that comes from ignorance of the nature of direct experience, most specifically the nature of impermanence. I would recommend Shinzen’s See Hear Feel technique, and specifically the “flow” and “space” categories, as these are really useful towards breaking down this ignorance and opening experience into how it actually is - one unified, interconnected, non-dual flow. Samanari Jayasara’s Wisdom of the Masters YouTube channel is also great to use as guided meditations, however it’s very advanced material and may not click as easily as something very tangible and practice like Shinzen’s stuff.

The first part is fair, they’re are those who are very gifted without effort or practice. But to setup this dichotomy - you’re either naturally gifted or meditation is useless - is asinine. Yes the dog example points to the value of this human life, just how precious it is to be born as a human. We, unlike a dog, have the capacity for enlightenment. Moreover, the brain is a uniquely malleable organ compared to the rest of the body. To use genetics as an argument for some kind of inherent, static limitation of the mind is not only incredibly close-minded, it’s implicitly materialistic. The mind’s capacity for transformation is vast, grandiose. Psychedelics prove this. And for those unafraid of industrial grade practice, who see the futility and insanity of how most of us live, even those who think they’re into serious spirituality, those beings see this capacity for transformation through manual practice and their resulting direct experience.

@PedroCedro Dude he’s one of the most advanced yogis on the forum… @Shambhu is most certainly speaking from experience lol.

As someone who is currently living with a group of contemplatives, semi-monastics, this is simply not what I observe. This genetics idea is a belief you’ve adopted from Leo and now parrot but it is not grounded in your direct experience. Well perhaps that’s why you haven't had profound, mind blowing, life altering results from meditation. I haven't met a single person who’s actually and completely thrown themselves into meditation who hasn’t had profound results. I would say many. The people who spend as much time as Mooji, Sadhguru, or the Dalai Lama are typically so rare and so off the radar of the mainstream, you’d never encounter them. But they do exist. Most of these kinds of people aren’t leading communities or engaging in the public in the same way.

Where it seems most people misunderstand “form” on this forum is that form is non-existent. If the mind is actually hyper concentrated on the moment by moment experience of reality, it will be observed that all perception is like quicksand. The moment any, ANY, “form” appears, in that same moment it’s already gone. The only reason “form” appears as form at all is because of the mind. The mind, through the mechanism of memory, creates a lightening fast mirage of preceding moments and super imposes these memories on-top of the current aggregation of perception, giving rise to a false sense of solidity through an entanglement of outer and inner perceptive experiences. When one actually examines the actuality of form, there is quite literally nothing there. Any thing you think you can grasp is already gone. If the mind were to actually see reality clearly, all possibility of any substantiality, solidity, FORM, would be seen as an impossibility. Form is really just a moment by moment flickering of totally unique arising and passing perceptive aggregates superimposed by the mind’s memory of “prior” moments. When one’s attention attempts to grasp onto anything, it cannot if reality is seem clearly - it’s all already gone. Yet this isn’t even the deepest ramifications of what can be said when one actually observes reality. Because even time loses its solidity and the idea of prior moments that could have been superimposed is directly experienced as an even deeper, more subtle form of ignorance. So when someone thinks consciousness can change, or states are all that exist, this is a conclusion derived out of the ignorance of the nature of all states, which is that the construction of a state at all, ‘how things are appearing to be,’ is only possible through a misunderstanding of the actuality of one’s direct experience. At the highest level, the only thing that can be said to be real is that which does not change, because all that is changing is not actually changing, but completely non-existent, a pure illusion. Yet something remains.

Or a massive amount of work in a short period of time most are unwilling to do yet are fully capable of doing if we’re only work a 40 hour work week. This natural talent has less to do with one’s response to meditation and much more to do with one’s faith, openness and diligence in the practice. Those that practice diligently, going on retreats regularly, strong daily practice, working with a teacher, studying, etc. are the ones who see the real fruit of the meditative path. If someone happens to have the natural talent of seeing and having faith in the practice, has a natural talent of discipline and diligence, has the natural talent of having the humility and openness to work with a teacher, yeah, huge factor. As far as one’s response to the practice being driven by “talent” that is very suspicious from my pov. Ive never met a genuine sage who hasnt worked their ass off.

Preparatory practices yes. The highest meditation teachings and instructions are not about manipulating one’s state, but resting in the recognition of the “Buddha Nature” of all states. Usually if one hasn’t adequately and yes, relatively, “purified” their mind, this recognition is shallow and swamped in self deception. This type self-deception is rampant in the Neo Advaita community, for example.

This is not my direct experience, at all. Sounds like you’ve had bad teachers and/or haven’t explored meditation very deeply.

@GreenWoods Where in the world are you grtting this data from? Have you spent time in monasteries with monks, have you gone on retreats that are predominantly monks, how many retreats have you even been on, and how many hours have you actually meditated? It’s shocking how many people here who are anti meditation leading to enlightenment are just parroting beliefs without any real direct experience to back it up.

You fundamentally misunderstand the nature of suffering man. This comment and your prior calling those who wish to end suffering cowardice is evidence of this.

@ardacigin Thank you for such a clear, concise and helpful message friend. I have no doubt it will resonate with many. Much love ❤️