Mu_

@Razard86 I mean your not wrong. But funny enough this cartoon the only reality we got....

I'll poke the philosophy and grammar bear. While I like the statement and think I agree in total with it on one level, it still does not encompass the experience of living , the illusionary side of it all, nor the totality of it all. At a certain point of understanding truth+fiction+inconceivable become one to such a degree that they lose their distinction and separation and I'd say become a whole new thing that doesn't have a word, or way to formulate it cleanly and concisely. I'll even concede saying they become one is saying to much, perhaps "....." is closer, but even then its beyond what I can type or a well efforted grammatically and logical statement like you or I attempted fails to fully grasp and encapsulate.

@Hyperion Was there a question in this? If not, I think I generally agree with your first 2 paragraphs. Your 3rd paragraph I can't confirm or deny since I know nothing of what Buddhist mean by the word Shunyata. And your 4th paragraph, I think your assuming and saying to much even if I agree and understand with where your coming from :). From my deeper understanding of this over the last years what you've said about Shunyata has become pretty clear and foundational and, its far from Nihilistic. I'm not sure if Shunyata as its formally taught includes the reality that you can awakening to some fundamental understanding of reality itself, but putting what ever that is into words, isn't the full picture, or if Shunyata is saying therefore you can't come to a ultimate understanding of sorts, because no understanding is "it" or possible, thats where I'd push back, but have dove into and maybe get what its saying, because its almost true.

First, show me the front of a tree. Next, show me the front of your body. Finally, tell me where is in and where is out? -author, Mu

I say what I'm about to say with no desire to make a declaration or claim of any sort, just to put into word with the best of intentions and honesty to describe what troubles me as of late. Nothing is constant anymore except perhaps the nature of color remaining with in its spectrums as the supposed inner and outer world are in constant flux, morphing ever so slightly into occasional explainable patterns. The body has mostly disappeared, but occasionally shows up like a vague phantom of just experiencing a leg drifting in space or in proximity to what it may have once felt like to have a leg in a localized space. Awareness and being seem to be a more consistent constant of life, in a world where the knowledge and experience of time are almost forgotten. Discomfort and happiness come and go at regular intervals with no warning or knowledge of their arrival or departure. The activities of my life occasionally just seem to do themselves. I have no idea how I do my job or drive, it just seems to happen and get done effectively, despite really having no idea how. Some how I still seem to express a relatively normal and more so than not positive personality, but feel regularly troubled in this strange space in which seemed to be "enlightenment" until it was not. Hopefully this will finally pass one day. For a while the best way I could describe what was happening was like the villain in Everything Everywhere All At Once. while not as extreme externally by any means, but the experience of the world at times felt very much like a constant morphing with varying degree's of intensity, feeling half solid, while half empty in the Buddhist sense. Like literally, half a body on what felt like one side, and like a line drawn down the middle of experience, half enternal, no boundaries expanding great lengths, with deep void and emptiness. Not loneliness, I've forgotten what that feels like, but empty of distinction and quality. The hardest and most difficult to explain is this weird quality of emptiness and fullness than grow and shrink in various intensities and simultaneous strange distortions of the two that happen throughout the day. Thankfully not constant but enough to be troubled by it, like a storm out of no where. There's all sorts of things maybe one day I'll have words for or science and humanity will catch up and be able to catalog such things with greater accuracy, but for now all I got is reference points grounded in a language and a world I know is not fundamentally as it seems to begin with and ultimately couldn't be fully understood or cataloged.

Found this video randomly today and it really blew me away how much was pointed to and could be understood/experienced in a few minutes. She laid out how to discover yourself in one of the deepest ways possible in a easy to follow, logical, experiential step by step fashion. Try and watch it to at least 2 minutes to really hear and feel it out. I've been investigating this stuff for over 25 years and can't believe I've never heard it laid out so simply while at the same time giving you the time to see it for yourself in real time. Most the time either this kinda stuff is so long winded that you don't know what to make of it, or its put into concepts and abstractions that you don't know how to get anything out of or experience.

@Someone here Long time no see. Sorry to hear your having a hard time with all of this. I'm struggling a lot these days to. I'm not sure there is an easy answer to your issue, but two things came to mind that have shifted things for me in the past. One is a silly Indian fable some guru told his student. A monkey climbed up a tree to get a banana, as he climbed to the top of the tree, he slipped and fell. He never got the banana, and died that day. Thats it. Some stories end like that. My sense is your at odds with dying and pain. You also have a concept that its all meaningless because of this, and why would it be like this. Really become okay with this natural fact, AND take care of your ordinary life despite it could end and become painful any moment. Just stop being held back by this notion. Really acknowledge this if its true or not. Wish you well.

@Synchronicity likewise there is no inside of your body, there is just a body, and you define the head as on top and the feet at the bottom but it’s one connected unit with no inside or outside of it. It’s only through language and terminology that you’ve sectioned it into pieces and feel it in pieces.

But the inside is all connected like a solid ball. If your just a solid ball with no outside, there is no inside the ball 🏀 it’s just ball ball ball ball. likewise. There is no objective front of a tree. And no top of a lake. These require other separate things and definitions to create.

What would it be inside to if it’s the only one event, your looking at it as though it’s a human inside the space looking around so there is an inside, but the whole thing itself. There is no outside it or inside it, just IT. This is a none measurable event.

@Synchronicity also in a finite uncaised reality there would be no outside of it and no inside of it, it would be a unified unseperable self contained self knowing self defining phenomenon. It would only be able to measure itself by creating its own imposed separation to say this is a length and this is a space. Same would go with supposed time , it would define what constitutes a thing called time or not.

@Synchronicity ya I don’t know what to say. There’s always “something”. There is no possibility for nothing. If there was ever nothing, there would never be anything again, for there would be no way for something to exist. to say reality could just happen when there is absolutely nothing at all is illogical. so the fact there is @something” means it could not come from something else for if it did it would be connected and this the same thing.

I’m not sure if we need to prove time but your theory depends on it since your saying time which hasn’t been qualified yet can extend for a length and stop in this uncaused finite reality. in fact this theory depends on time being real in it to be a grounds for the disproval of the other proof I started with. And yet you or I don’t know what time is to begin with. Your now saying you could theorize ways in which time could be to work in this fictitious idea when you or I don’t know what any of it is to begin with or if it’s even real to start. Leo is right, logic’ can come up with all sorts of ways to believe something.

Who would be tracking this start and end to even call it that. Who or what is saying there is time in this theory. Time is just a theory at this point and this theory your presenting is saying a thing called time which hasn’t been proven yet is in it. it kinda feels like a theory that insists on 4 dimensional triangles need to be disproved before we can accept oneness.

@Synchronicity is this theory also implying this type of reality could end, and then begin again with no connection or cause to the previous one? And in that space where one begins and the other ends, there isn’t “nothing” happening in that transition. lol

@Synchronicity @Synchronicity I mean it’s interesting, but who or what is determining time in this theory. if it is truely just a self contained event that starts with no cause, it is One and only it could determine if there is time or not, humans have no domain in this subject. This self contained world could grow things that are extensions of it/it’s starting point who may make up concepts about itself and talk about things called time and call it seconds or blips but again it’s a self contained one event. So that’s a whole other bag of worms.

So there is nothing prior to it but it started? And start does not imply it came into existence, it’s when exaistance and time began, and there is nothing prior to outside of it. Who’s determining time in this world?

So it started from nothing or it was always there?

So it started 1 trillion years ago, so did the unplaced stuff start then as well?

No not at all I’m open to this debate but now wonder if you truely are. I’m just asking you a question. Because I want to understand. When does time start in your proposed possibility.

But I feel like your being illogical and unable to concisely mean something real. Like a 4 sided triangle. when does the start start, if the unplaced objects are never placed.

So your saying time starts at what point then, when the unplaced finite objects start existing? But again your saying they don’t start they are unplaced. So when does time start in this theoretical idea then?

Now I don’t know the difference between your idea of eternal and this Hawkins thing. For me eternal doesn’t mean an infinite chain behind it, it’s just there as the only thing, no before, no after. your saying pretty much the same thing no? But a starting point is the result with afterwards? if so I’d ask what do you mean start and after. It’s self contained going-onness no? There’s no time in this, it’s just itself happening

What do you mean a starting point without placed content. Your saying eternal has no starting point per its definition and Hawkins is saying unplaced content but a starting point as in time starts? stars when is the first thought that comes to mind, when the content ther wasn’t placed was placed??? But it doesn’t have a moment when it was so it’s always been there. Something’s not adding up.

Just to clarify I don’t generally use the word infinite to prove infinity, but rather to prove eternal. Leo’s about infinity. Ok so why eternal. Well according your own premise it’s the only finite whatever thing or energy. It didn’t come into being from something, it always existed/existing? I’m not sure how that is not eternal. Where would something go in a supposed death, there’s no where else to exist according to this finite thing being the only place. there would also be no time since nothing has a starting point, it’s always been. And there for now is this moment, and always this moment, sure there may be mind experiences of change and body aging experience of change but, the reality is there is no actual ticking time.