Etherial Cat

@Gesundheit2 Nobody denies the good place integral is coming from. But coming from a good place doesn't prevent stating problematic things, creating difficulties for victims to speak up, gaslighting women, or empowering sexual offenders by mistake. This type of dynamic prevent change and makes one unfortunately part of the problem instead of the solution. I'd like to add, that insinuating that our posts are due to being unreceptive and triggered is another shot at making our very legitimate position and reasoning some non-sense that should not be taken seriously because of being somewhat irrational . Which is a common mysoginstic pattern. "Women are emotional and can't think properly". No offense, but we are as cogent as you guys are, so please abstain from such framing. Also, making pussy grabbing jokes in the middle of this thread is distastful. You're preaching peace while at the same showing hostile displays, and pass yourself as a neutral actor. Both you and I remember very clearly a similar conversation about unsollicited dick pick going in the same direction. Respecting female boundaries wasn't there your priority either. Just sayin'

You guys! I thought the same too. Haha

Thank you @Nahm for clariflying things and calling people out. ❤️

What a Chad. ?? You bet! ? Minutes? Poor innocent soul. The real pain kicks in after hours. ?

Bruh. That's a trick to have you naked in a bed. The girl is a bait. ? Heels are attrocious. You should try them for a day and let me know what you think of this torture device. ?

In a nutshell, very much so. But you don't have 1 of them. You've got hundreds If not thousands from puberty to losing your attractivity. ? And they are everywhere. From your boss potentially to the guy in the street corner. ?

At this point, you might as well want to block him and give him the minimum treatment If he comes back to your workplace. That person is dancing over your boundaries, not giving a flying fuck about what you've told him so far. It's likely this dynamic will persist.

Society criminalize raping. Not existing, minding your own business and being assaulted. That kid is supposed to keep his dick in his pant and the standard If it is not observed is potentialy facing justice. Because this is seen as a crime. You might not think it is, but that's a fact. We're not talking about equal things.

First of all, what you are telling us doesn't come far off from victime blaming. The essence of what you say is "Girls should know better". Even If you distance yourself from the fact that this what you mean. This is exactly what I meant earlier by pointing this behaviour as rape culture. A woman is not responsible for the reaction a man has got. Who cares If he's on fire? A few years ago when I travaled to Egypt some men got on fire when my ankles got displayed under my maxi dress. Their problem. Not mine. I am free to live my life without being made accountable for someone's pulsion. It's the same If a woman sleeps somewhere (home, at her bfs place...) and a dude thinks he's entitled to something. Then I also totally disagree on your take about consent. Despite what you've been saying, men who subjectify women and care about consent are far less likely to adopt dangerous behaviour. Also, If cultural norms would make of it a standard within relationship we'd see also a drastic shift. People act according to what their environment perceive as normal and what they are taught within their socialisation.

I'm not sure how I can say this again. Do I also need to highlight it ? I (we) got what you've been trying to do there . It's just that it is seems so basic that my focus has always been on the fact that the outcome (not raping) is what matters. By focusing on why it's hard to resist desire, it doesn't get us further. We're better of teaching people how to be mindful while engaging in sex acts. The point is some men bypass consent (hence these stories). And the low hanging fruit is to inform people on how to respect it. Mind you, a lot of female get assaulted by men who do not realize how bad their actions have been or brush it off. On one hand, you've got someone who wanted sex, and on the other you got someone who is potentially traumatized because someone has been inside their body. So this is why I focus on the later. If you'd be a female you would instantly get how much benefit would come from being mindful about how important it is that someone wants sex as well. And you would protect this interest and give it a bit of space everytime the basics can be stated. Because there is a lot of work to do on the domain.

He has literally entered the conversation with an attempt to gang up. "You said this guy was a rapist, and now you're rolling it back". That framing... Lol

Such a valuable thread! I'd better print some of these fab answers and make posters out of them.

This was always my position. ?

Hmm. No sorry, I didn't walk it back.

@MatteO22 Thanks for validating me and for your kind words. @bejapuskas I also appreciated your posts . I'm a bit surprised this conversation got so difficult. I thought it was obvious.

Beside I wasn't bothered by the first part of his post but more concerned about the second part where he "admitted on stimulating" girls in their sleep. Again, depending on context this can work. But it's so borderline that it felt like normalizing some grey behaviour right under a post talking about assault. Like it was stated before, a lot of men do not realize when they cross the line. Doing stuff to your girlfriend/fiancée/wife while she sleeps can be very creepy as well.

I fail to understand why you assume we don't know that men desire our bodies? You'd have to clone Stevie Wonder and raise him in a sensory deprivation tank to find a human being unaware of this fact. The whole point of the conversation is sexual assault. That means undesired sexual intercourse and they are very much something to hold men responsable for If a woman sleeps/is unconscious. @integral has just been stating that men have desire all over the place, like it tells us something we didnt know. Rapist have desire. So what? Does it mean we need to start wearing the Burqa? What it does is that it solely give excuses for why women get assaulted. It's rape culture rethoric.

What's your point here ? That it's okay for them to rape my ass If I fall asleep ? Beside, I don't mean to be rude but I don't think it is very common to look at relative as sex material. I find it strange that you are fixating on "It's selfish and rapey to feel horny and prey on an unconscious body. " Because there is nothing uncommon about it. It's even like a "duh" thing. What do you have to object against it? What you seem to be saying for the last posts is that men desire sexually women ( which we already know). That some of these men will act on it. Which we also know. But i dont get what is your train of thought beside that?

I don't think there is a culture shock to the male perspective going on there. I'm a trained lawyer ?. I know exactly what qualifies as rape. If you penetrate someone while they are asleep and they haven't consented, this is it. Of course, If your partner enjoys it and want sex, then you're lucky because it means that they were in. But If she/he wakes up and get offended, then what? Meanwhile, "stimulating" a girl who is asleep is a potential sexual assault. Same applies for how it is received in a nutshell. I think of course, depending on context and the relationship it's safe to assume your partner will be down for some of it. But sometimes, due to what I read on this forum I'm skeptical that these type of boundary breach are not occuring. So I just want to issue a caveat... Nope this is not the male perspective. I don't think a lot of guys I know hold your view. Exactly what I was thinking. So thanks for writing this.

The men I am attracted to are generally very much in control of themselves, so even If the idea of having sex with a woman asleep would cross their mind I'm certain they wouldn't start groping them. I guess it's okay to some extend to wake up your partner for sex, but waking them up already performing sexual acts is creepy. You wont get me to change my mind. -- Right. I expected this answer to be fair. What I can tell is that I have also heard a lot of women who had this type of experience and did not take it well at all. It's possible that some might think there is nothing wrong with it, and perhaps some can even enjoy it, but the reaction is up to the person. Better be sure its in the whiter zone. Performing sex on someone while they sleep qualifies as a legal offense. It's better to make sure your partner is down for it. Claiming its fine and normal to do this is problematic. Especially after Emerald shared her story. Doing this basically diminsh her testimony by writing just down 'well, I touch girls in their sleep and they love it".

It's not okay to stimulate someone while they sleep. By definition, they can't give consent. It's also very unlikely that this person would take well during the day a direct stimulation without some warming ahead. This is taking advantage of the situation. Waking up to someone doing something to you is a traumatic cold shower. The person is most likely not horny at all and realize it is being objectified by someone it thought was safe to be around. It's selfish and rapey to feel horny and prey on an unconscious body.

If the person is open to share with you why it doesn't feel like engaging further with you, then you can shoot for it. But the rule is : this person doesn't owe you an explanation. If he/she does it, it's already an extra. It tells you that this person is not into you. Whatever its reasons are. And that person's reasons are not your problem. It's not personal. What bullshit narratives?

Bruh. I 100% agree that Edward Cullen and Christian Grey's are absolute psycho. I can guarantee you that If a guy confuses me for its potential dinner and feel an urge to kill me, I'm not interested ?. When I said that they are hot, I was merely talking about the actor's physics. Young, good looking and 6 packs. That's it.

You're right about the learning curve. As long as there is some progress, I'm very content! Yeah, you might have a point when it comes to my tendency to speak from the heart. I didn't realize it, but there is definitely a lot of heartly talk oozing from me. I like to see myself as a rational- mind oriented creature as well. But sometimes, I just want to explain things for a heart perspective when I feel like the mind perspective is trapped into some masturbation or the information doesn't circulate fast enough in this way.

At the end of the day, the rejection itself is the only answer you need. It tells more about the other person than it tells about you. It's just not a match. Both subjectivities do not align. But the person has the choice to reject you or not. Loving someone is respecting its free-will... You can't be angry at someone for refusing to accept you when you do the same right after. You're rejecting as poorly the rejection, and it shows that there is no healthy dynamic happening there. You're coming off as very needy and conditional, coming from this perspective. Yet, I get that the reason why is that you feel deeply hurt and you really want affection. But your emotions seems to kind of have festered and turned into anger. Working on this could really help, I think. I had already done it. I have spent a lot of time studying responsibility within the academic context (law school/philosophy), so I'm having a hard time combining your take on it with my perspectives on the subject.