Etherial Cat

Thank you @Nahm for clariflying things and calling people out. ❤️

Society criminalize raping. Not existing, minding your own business and being assaulted. That kid is supposed to keep his dick in his pant and the standard If it is not observed is potentialy facing justice. Because this is seen as a crime. You might not think it is, but that's a fact. We're not talking about equal things.

First of all, what you are telling us doesn't come far off from victime blaming. The essence of what you say is "Girls should know better". Even If you distance yourself from the fact that this what you mean. This is exactly what I meant earlier by pointing this behaviour as rape culture. A woman is not responsible for the reaction a man has got. Who cares If he's on fire? A few years ago when I travaled to Egypt some men got on fire when my ankles got displayed under my maxi dress. Their problem. Not mine. I am free to live my life without being made accountable for someone's pulsion. It's the same If a woman sleeps somewhere (home, at her bfs place...) and a dude thinks he's entitled to something. Then I also totally disagree on your take about consent. Despite what you've been saying, men who subjectify women and care about consent are far less likely to adopt dangerous behaviour. Also, If cultural norms would make of it a standard within relationship we'd see also a drastic shift. People act according to what their environment perceive as normal and what they are taught within their socialisation.

I'm not sure how I can say this again. Do I also need to highlight it ? I (we) got what you've been trying to do there . It's just that it is seems so basic that my focus has always been on the fact that the outcome (not raping) is what matters. By focusing on why it's hard to resist desire, it doesn't get us further. We're better of teaching people how to be mindful while engaging in sex acts. The point is some men bypass consent (hence these stories). And the low hanging fruit is to inform people on how to respect it. Mind you, a lot of female get assaulted by men who do not realize how bad their actions have been or brush it off. On one hand, you've got someone who wanted sex, and on the other you got someone who is potentially traumatized because someone has been inside their body. So this is why I focus on the later. If you'd be a female you would instantly get how much benefit would come from being mindful about how important it is that someone wants sex as well. And you would protect this interest and give it a bit of space everytime the basics can be stated. Because there is a lot of work to do on the domain.

He has literally entered the conversation with an attempt to gang up. "You said this guy was a rapist, and now you're rolling it back". That framing... Lol

Such a valuable thread! I'd better print some of these fab answers and make posters out of them.

This was always my position. ?

Hmm. No sorry, I didn't walk it back.

@MatteO22 Thanks for validating me and for your kind words. @bejapuskas I also appreciated your posts . I'm a bit surprised this conversation got so difficult. I thought it was obvious.

Beside I wasn't bothered by the first part of his post but more concerned about the second part where he "admitted on stimulating" girls in their sleep. Again, depending on context this can work. But it's so borderline that it felt like normalizing some grey behaviour right under a post talking about assault. Like it was stated before, a lot of men do not realize when they cross the line. Doing stuff to your girlfriend/fiancée/wife while she sleeps can be very creepy as well.

I fail to understand why you assume we don't know that men desire our bodies? You'd have to clone Stevie Wonder and raise him in a sensory deprivation tank to find a human being unaware of this fact. The whole point of the conversation is sexual assault. That means undesired sexual intercourse and they are very much something to hold men responsable for If a woman sleeps/is unconscious. @integral has just been stating that men have desire all over the place, like it tells us something we didnt know. Rapist have desire. So what? Does it mean we need to start wearing the Burqa? What it does is that it solely give excuses for why women get assaulted. It's rape culture rethoric.

What's your point here ? That it's okay for them to rape my ass If I fall asleep ? Beside, I don't mean to be rude but I don't think it is very common to look at relative as sex material. I find it strange that you are fixating on "It's selfish and rapey to feel horny and prey on an unconscious body. " Because there is nothing uncommon about it. It's even like a "duh" thing. What do you have to object against it? What you seem to be saying for the last posts is that men desire sexually women ( which we already know). That some of these men will act on it. Which we also know. But i dont get what is your train of thought beside that?

I don't think there is a culture shock to the male perspective going on there. I'm a trained lawyer ?. I know exactly what qualifies as rape. If you penetrate someone while they are asleep and they haven't consented, this is it. Of course, If your partner enjoys it and want sex, then you're lucky because it means that they were in. But If she/he wakes up and get offended, then what? Meanwhile, "stimulating" a girl who is asleep is a potential sexual assault. Same applies for how it is received in a nutshell. I think of course, depending on context and the relationship it's safe to assume your partner will be down for some of it. But sometimes, due to what I read on this forum I'm skeptical that these type of boundary breach are not occuring. So I just want to issue a caveat... Nope this is not the male perspective. I don't think a lot of guys I know hold your view. Exactly what I was thinking. So thanks for writing this.

The men I am attracted to are generally very much in control of themselves, so even If the idea of having sex with a woman asleep would cross their mind I'm certain they wouldn't start groping them. I guess it's okay to some extend to wake up your partner for sex, but waking them up already performing sexual acts is creepy. You wont get me to change my mind. -- Right. I expected this answer to be fair. What I can tell is that I have also heard a lot of women who had this type of experience and did not take it well at all. It's possible that some might think there is nothing wrong with it, and perhaps some can even enjoy it, but the reaction is up to the person. Better be sure its in the whiter zone. Performing sex on someone while they sleep qualifies as a legal offense. It's better to make sure your partner is down for it. Claiming its fine and normal to do this is problematic. Especially after Emerald shared her story. Doing this basically diminsh her testimony by writing just down 'well, I touch girls in their sleep and they love it".

It's not okay to stimulate someone while they sleep. By definition, they can't give consent. It's also very unlikely that this person would take well during the day a direct stimulation without some warming ahead. This is taking advantage of the situation. Waking up to someone doing something to you is a traumatic cold shower. The person is most likely not horny at all and realize it is being objectified by someone it thought was safe to be around. It's selfish and rapey to feel horny and prey on an unconscious body.

If the person is open to share with you why it doesn't feel like engaging further with you, then you can shoot for it. But the rule is : this person doesn't owe you an explanation. If he/she does it, it's already an extra. It tells you that this person is not into you. Whatever its reasons are. And that person's reasons are not your problem. It's not personal. What bullshit narratives?

Bruh. I 100% agree that Edward Cullen and Christian Grey's are absolute psycho. I can guarantee you that If a guy confuses me for its potential dinner and feel an urge to kill me, I'm not interested ?. When I said that they are hot, I was merely talking about the actor's physics. Young, good looking and 6 packs. That's it.

You're right about the learning curve. As long as there is some progress, I'm very content! Yeah, you might have a point when it comes to my tendency to speak from the heart. I didn't realize it, but there is definitely a lot of heartly talk oozing from me. I like to see myself as a rational- mind oriented creature as well. But sometimes, I just want to explain things for a heart perspective when I feel like the mind perspective is trapped into some masturbation or the information doesn't circulate fast enough in this way.

At the end of the day, the rejection itself is the only answer you need. It tells more about the other person than it tells about you. It's just not a match. Both subjectivities do not align. But the person has the choice to reject you or not. Loving someone is respecting its free-will... You can't be angry at someone for refusing to accept you when you do the same right after. You're rejecting as poorly the rejection, and it shows that there is no healthy dynamic happening there. You're coming off as very needy and conditional, coming from this perspective. Yet, I get that the reason why is that you feel deeply hurt and you really want affection. But your emotions seems to kind of have festered and turned into anger. Working on this could really help, I think. I had already done it. I have spent a lot of time studying responsibility within the academic context (law school/philosophy), so I'm having a hard time combining your take on it with my perspectives on the subject.

Thank you. I've learned a lot through reading other forum members, especially @Emerald. She's the real master of the craft. Unfortunatelly, I do get hostile from time to time. I always see it as a failure when this happens. I still have a lot to learn before I'm satisfied with the way I engage with other fellow human beings.

Oh? Are we responsible as well for an injury if it's not realized? If you don't think women are wronging you, then why are you asking for responsibility? I think it's just likely that you haven't been thinking through the concept of responsibility and I'm pointing stuff that are flying over your head here. Also, I don't think you mean responsibility in the way you defined it. If you proceed to a subsumption and replace it by "ability to respond" or "the choice to do something" it doesn't make any sense.

Not in the context induced by your post. The responsibility you talked about was an accountability type, similar to what one asks after being done wrong by someone. It has nothing to do with the "ability to respond" or "choice to do something" you find within self-help. Your stawmaning my point.

Jesus. I find shocking to read something like this. ? Responsibility is something one has whenever one's fault or action has contributed to a loss. Do you want to hold women accountable for simply existing and having the right to chose what to do with their life/body? Your desire is for you to control. Don't deflect responsibility. Imagine if I were to offer you a plate of shit and hold you accountable for refusing to eat it? Your reasoning doesn't come far off from this.

You said wuuut ? C'mon Preety, this indeed sounds 100% mad. What you told him is that you don't value your life to the point you'd give it up for someone you've had a few conversations with. It also makes it scary to get involved in a relationship with you. It's starting extremely needy and intense. I'd see this as trouble and run.

Energetical wholeness in the world of form. Everything is a dance between the masculine and the feminine. The two polarities want to merge back as well through the human expression. Our psyche longs for a reintegration which often fails to be managed by the individual itself. Often in this case the energy throughout the whole body is out of balance. So It looks for it in the other polarities. But sex is also the ultimate play of that game.