Etherial Cat

Hmm... It's like, you interact with a person and follow the flow without having necessary special expectations about what this is, at first. Usually, you don't decide ahead either whether you are going to be friend with someone or not. There is a lot of detachment on the outcome at this stage. Then the thing takes off because there are some natural compatibility and there are cues given on both side that something is building up on the attraction level. For female, it is particularly reassuring because at this stage you know that the guy isn't there only to dip his dick and really likes you and vice versa. Starting right away with sexual/romantic intent comes off as fishy, especially if a platonic relation is not offered. And if you are a woman, you might get worried that he's only interested in your because it happens that you are his type physically, which comes off as a bit shallow.

Notice that it is you and Lucas who have been talking about friendship. In your case, you've been talking about it twice in capital letter. Friendship is not the right word, the idea is basically that you start platonically when you get to know someone. And it takes a bit of time to decide whether or not you vibe. At this point, it is totally ok to do a first move. Friendship is not a dating strategy and I don't think anybody here has ever claimed that it was a good one. In fact, there has been a few threads about how it is a bad idea to befriend women in the hope of dating them. That's not what is being talked about here.

I'm not talking about trying to become friend with a girl with the purpose of perhaps dating her. What is being discussed here is the case when you have a day-to-day relationship with a girl in your vicinity until you realize you want to date her because "there is a vibe". Ideally, you'd have plenty of people with whom you build acquaintance relationship/ friendship around. That's before initiating a potential move toward more because attraction is building up on both side after getting to know to each other. Anyway- this advice was directed toward female. Not male. But it also works that way sometimes for men.

This works also from a masculine perspective, by the way ?. I'm not saying you can't go through other means, but mocking Emerald's advice like you did doesn't make sense to me. Also... On my side, no sex before I know who is the person getting inside of me. I'm totally grossed out by the idea of letting a stranger in my body. I think this should be a standard and I would probably screen out anyone who's getting easily in bed with people based on mere sexual attraction without a deeper underlying thing. I anyway already do it.

The advice is far from being off. Usually, the way this works is that you notice someone you know in your circle and your interactions turns to something deeper than the surface level thingy. You see that it clicks, that you share interests and your energy are compatible. Slowly the vibe changes from normal to ambiguous. What is great in that context is that you get to know the person outside the context of just seduction. Because seduction is involving the persona and has this inherent competitive approach where both party want to win over the other one by being on its best behavior. The issue is that you don't get to see who that person is for a while in that way. Through spotting someone and getting to know each other on a more friendly base, you get to bypass a lot of that parade which I find undesirable.

3 months is rather short. You might scare the dude . Do you think your want to move in might be linked to the difficult place you are at emotionally due to what's up with your mum? If so, you could ask him if you could stay over at his place for a few days/weeks and kinda test the water. I also think it's better to go slowly and this looks like a fair compromise. If I were you, I wouldn't be keen on moving in directly without seeing how you actually spending some time together for a while works.

Thank you!

Thank you. Yes I really think that recognizing that pick-up has the ability both to help you develop your skills and lure you towards unattractive behavior and misconception is key.

I think you are missing the point here. Of course women love the fact that men are trying to make themselves more attractive for girls. But pick-up is un umbrella word which includes a lot of practices that are ultimately counter-productive and unattractive. I'm all for maximize dating related development lines, but I'm going to pin point at where traditional pick up is off. And one of these place where it is off is when men see relationship is a zero sum game or a win-lose or a lose-win. Typically, reading our comments and thinking that our agenda is to prevent you from becoming more attractive is one of these misconception. What we want to do is to create win-win solutions and help men to become truly attractive. And not waste your time and energy operating from common pitfalls which are widespread in the pick-up communities. Another important point is to start listening to women instead of assuming by default that we are stupid and don't know what we like. Relationships without proper connection and discussion are doomed to be a train-wreck. Making yourself more attractive starts here with learning how to listen without thinking that we are here to take away your power.

San Pedro is a wonderful plant medicine for healing. Should be added to all advices regarding using substance for healing. So I'm adding this there as well.

Great list of principles. This match my experience and puts it to words brilliantly.

It's an interesting thread for sure. Ultimately, I want to ask, what is pick-up? I think there was a few posts which were extremely interesting asking "how pick-up overlaps with personal development"? And this is spot on in my opinion. Is pick-up "the development line" of masculine dating self-help? Or is it something else overlapping with it? The way I see it is that pick-up reminds me of the relation alchemy versus real chemistry. It warrants some results, but it doesn't know exactly why. And a lot of it's theory appear to me as deadly wrong on a day-to-day basis when I read men talk about male/female attraction. Pick-up surely overlaps with what creates female attraction, but you don't need to know pick-up to be attractive. And that's because it is basically a collection of great practices observed in those who have a high degree of development in the areas tied to human desirability. And then what it tries to do is to generalize it, so men can emulate it and create results for themselves thanks to these tricks. But it's really also intertwined with a lot of unnecessary additions derived by masculine biases and projections. And this creates a lot of misconception about female desire for men. Especially because the results are also datas collected within a special social cultural context, at a certain point in time, through peculiar collective traumas etc. What bugs me a lot about this forum and the fact that a lot of time women in here a told that "you shouldn't ask women what they find attractive" is that it prevents women from correcting these misconception and more importantly it is a a self-deception mechanism from men to ignore the problems coming from pick-up. And I'm not going to sugar-coat it, but I think that the reason why they do it is because obviously because seduction in general is a nest for devilry. Which include their own way of using other human for self-gratification, consciously or unconsciously and they don't want to be confronted about it. Seduction is all about luring an object of desire your way as opposed as genuinely caring about an individual's welfare as well (which is love) and pick-up is generally used as the ultimate seduction tool towards getting the hottest girl your way. In Christianity, the devil notoriously lure humans by giving them what they think they want, not caring about the truthfulness and righteousness of it on a longer cause and effect frame. God on the other hand, cares about the ecology and welfare of everyone. And I think it makes up for a great parallel on why pick-up comes up as unconscious and bugging because in 95% of the case, the knowledge gathered from it is used as a selfish seduction tool to extract from woman what a man wants from them. And particularly with pick-up culture, there is a clear emphasis on chasing vagina and treating women as objects towards a mean (sex) instead of focusing on finding a human being that correspond your real needs holistically. In that way, pick-up (as an umbrella term) can also absolutely dehumanizing towards female and it's not surprising that so much controversy and debate rise-up on a high consciousness self-help forum with these underlying dynamics. Because at the end of the day, if it leads to this type of interaction, it is a lose-lose. Also, no conscious/developed woman will be attracted to a man resorting to this dynamic. The moment she sees that, it acts as a red flag. She understands that a man is not totally developed on the real attraction development line but is faking its attractive qualities toward gullible women and has drifted away from the real thing. She sees him as an "alchemist" praying on easy targets and that's adding up to the unattractiveness of the situation. But of course, most of the time the men are not aware of that fact and think the average women are normal while the conscious woman is deluded and a pain in the ass. But a developed man would be better off with a developed woman. Because relationship between men and female are not summarized to merely getting some sex. Sex is like 15-20% of a relationship at most.

Yes of course. Okay. No problem Good luck with everything!

Maybe there is also an element of shame due to the fact that by writing we are disclosing a part of ourself. And of course, very often we perceive ourself as unacceptable to be seen. We keep on protecting a thick private sphere and we have fear of intimacy because we are afraid of rejection in daily life. And getting tagged as "unlovable". Our authenticity has always been repressed in order to fit within a mold. Being authentic and drifting from the mold feels therefore feels bad to us. That is very interesting. Thanks for the info. It's great food for contemplation and I can relate to it. I had noticed that it was a question of self-image and contradiction between the idea you've got of yourself and the new elements you see. Perhaps a lot of the horror we feel is the gap between what we think we are and what we appear factually to be. The ignorance and lack of awareness tells us how "wrong" we are even in our knowledge of our egoic self. We see how limited our self-image is, really. From inside, the ego has the feeling to be always right. Its perceptions and narratives are truth to it. I think feeling cringe also comes more often to those who have a negative self-image by default. Often these people have lacked validation and a secure attachment from their caretakers. Or they grew up in an environment where they have been told a lot that what they were doing is not correct. It makes one particularly anxious about how one appear. And they constantly look back at how they are doing. And you've got a phenomenon of a by default negative self-image, judging itself from an external vantage point. The negative self-image becomes then judge and the party.

@StarStruck ??? I'm mind blown. Congratulation on your healing journey. I think that once you'll have healed most of your trauma with the Feminine things are going to get much easier for you, regarding dating/pick up. -- Yes. This type of stuff is always about our own relationship with the in Feminine/Masculine throughout our formative years and subsequently the adult ones. 100% on point . -- Since you are living in the Netherlands- you could also investigate on San Pedro/ Ayahuasca for healing since you were already interested in psychadelics. San Pedro can be brewed quite easily and I think it is even legal to consume in this country. I would also suggest you to read Erich Fromm, the Art of Loving (available as audiobook- even on Youtube), as well as content by Gabor Matè on authenticity vs attachment to get a better grasp at where it might have gone wrong for you.

Really? Who does not deserve love, in your opinion? All humans should be loved. Each time you meet one, ideally you should treat them to the best of your current abilities. Of course, if someone is messing up actively with your boundaries or is being aggressive you should be careful and not want them anything near you. But it doesn't mean that you do not care for them and their well being overall.

By doing this type of stuff you're just sending a clear signal that she was right to ditch you. You've got to be loving towards women on a constant basis to be a catch. Here, you're showing a dark part of yourself.

Your title is perfect. Also, I never see any "cringe" worthy displays from you. You should believe more in yourself and your choices. Your self-image doesn't reflect accurately how gifted you are and easy to appreciate.

You work on it by gathering resources on the topic, and studying it extensively. You find some mentors and try to see how they do it and "absorb" their pattern, way of thinking etc... And then you also meditate on the subject of Love as a whole. You contemplate it. You try to practice it... until it becomes a part of you.

It reminds me of a stage Green version of priest doing disgusting things within the Church. People who identify as being "good" have potentially a huge shadow.

What you are after is not her. You are looking for your own ability to love yourself.... Her rejection is painful because you've delegated her the power to judge of your own worth. But YOU did that. She's a proxy in your mind and you want her love so you can love yourself back. But the trick is... you don't need her for that. The real problem is that you don't manage to directly love yourself. Hope this helps?

I'm loving this. And I've also seen my long laundry list of expectations reduced to nothing in front of the evidence.

Yes, definitely.

Oh gosh. Sounds like this one made it to the list because of a previous bad experience.

You've got to learn how to Love Yourself @StarStruck. It's always down to that... You will be your biggest provider and then the world will reflect that energy. I'm sending you all my compassion. You indeed seems to be very sad and broken hearted. It's great that you are working with Teal Swan. Check also Emerald's channel for working with your emotion and healing your relationship with the Feminine. Leo's video on Self-Love is also really great. I'm sorry for your pain, but it seems like this is exactly what you needed. You need this healing. Looking in this direction will give you far better results than if your pick up journey had gone smoothly so far. Courage!