TheAvatarState

@Roy opiates was an extreme example, but it was not structurally different than the potential trap of this forum. They both create a pattern of behavior that's delusional and harmful, just to varrying degrees.

I see where you're coming from. However, I think we should do more to steer people away from mentally masturbating about enlightenment and nonduality on the forum. It's a real trap. What you're saying is like, "well people know to not get addicted to opiates right? If they get addicted it's THEIR fault." We know that's not entirely true. Show more compassion! We need to take responsibility... this is a resource for newbies. If people wanna bullshit here on the forum, that's totally fine. But more could be done to make it abundantly clear that conceptualizing post-rational states of consciousness won't get you ANYWHERE. Not even a little bit. Talking to newbies about nonduality will never get them closer to that realization of their true nature, precisely because language is relative to an individual's experience they've already had. It's impossible to communicate a higher state of consciousness. That wasn't made clear to me until I had this epiphany a couple years after the fact. I've reflected on it more, and I don't think we should shut down this subforum. It serves a purpose in ways that may seem counter-intuitive at first. But I think it's a little too free-range as it stands right now. We encourage newbies to participate in discussions way outside their current consciousness... and that's honestly unconscionable if we really value their growth. Perhaps the resources need to be updated... made more concise and on-the-nose about the dangers and traps of such work. That's all I'm advocating for.

So without it it's butting heads, with it is butting heads... but maybe just less of it

@mandyjw I can butt heads with you and still love you.

See, I can't argue with that BUUUUTTTT... in this dream playing this relative avatar, I do have a certain amount of time. I think it's important to make sure other people aren't going around in circles in the same trap I did. It's like willingly leaving several bear traps next to your village, saying that was God's will. As a conscious person, you remove the traps so visitors don't step on them. That's part of why this forum exists. But I'm telling you a big trap is laying right here within the forum itself. I've noticed a few others that got it, and they left. There is nothing to gain by discussions of certain topics, it just creates swirls of delusion. The reason it persists is because people love jerking each other off. Enlightenment circle jerk. It's supposed to exist because it's here... but maybe it could change. That's all I'm saying.

You were imposed with all kinds of perspectives growing up. Some of them saved your life more than once. It's not necessary for every seeker to experience every pitfall, otherwise, why does the human race exist and why are we here if not to learn and streamline processes for others? And this isn't imposing a perspective, it's telling you to discover your own. I'm pointing to the fact that IT can't be discussed in any way, shape, or form. If you can't realize that any attempt to communicate IT is already one step removed from IT, then... don't think about it. Be IT. What you're discussing is not IT, but ideas and concepts of IT that can only take you as far as you've become conscious of. Let me give an example. "You are God. You are the universe. All distinctions are being imagined, and this reality is just one infinite mind. You are pure consciousness. You are the dreamer." OK. Ask yourself if I described IT. My description produced IMAGES in your mind, but they are finite and biased. These images are so colored by a subject/object duality, that you cannot even begin to conceive of what I just wrote. Not only does it not make any sense, you'd think I was a lunatic if you hadn't had a mystical experience. My words got you no closer to IT. ANY concept or image is limited and dualistic by nature. That being said, I think that certain images can act like training wheels, to make you look in certain places and not others. But their only function can be to MAKE YOU LOOK INSIDE, otherwise you're completely wasting your time. That process doesn't have to be a discussion. I saw myself waste so much time conceptualizing infinity, which is something this subforum feeds on.

That sounds very interesting, please tell me more I'm curious what was communicated that brought about an awakening, because I have never heard of such a thing.

I had this bird's eye realization, and it's still clear. The forum has never awakened anyone, nor will it ever. It has, however, led many people astray and wasted a lot of people's time. Again, just when discussing the absolute, awakening, nonduality, etc. You have to ask yourself, "What is the purpose of this sub-Forum? What is the mission of actualized.org?" I think we can all agree that it is to awaken and raise consciousness. If that is indeed the case, then this forum must cut off its arm, so to speak, to maintain the integrity of the whole. There's nothing to discuss on the subject. Any story leads you further from the realization that you are God. Any attempt to communicate to someone who is not already awakened just leads to more story. The uselessness, no, delusion, of this part of the forum is palpable. Delusion happens everywhere. People wanna masturbate, I get it. But maybe we should consider that this might not be a good place or set of topics to do it. Genuine people come here and leave more confused than when they left. I was one of them. It's not aligned with the mission of actualized.org, and I felt like I needed to speak up.

Yes. ? And this forum should be a tool for people to do just that. Getting lost debating concepts of time, infinity, God, etc. does not help towards that cause. Imagine if all newcomers knew right off the bat that thought and concept was a trap? Because this is a forum, they come here with questions, seeking answers on topics that can't be answered through words, yet we encourage them anyway. It's the experience that brings meaning to the words, not the other way around.

I don't think this is true. The 10th ox herding person is fully present, and goes into the village tavern and belly laughs and shows everyone else a good time. He doesn't need anyone else to be enlightened. He doesn't shout at the crowd to get woke... In fact, he doesn't mention his awakening at all. Why is this the picture the Ox herding book paints? I can really appreciate Leo's work. First I awakened through psychedelics, contemplation, etc, THEN I found Leo's channel. It helped ground me in my understanding and deepen it, but it would have meant absolutely nothing if I hadn't already been on the path. But notice that his videos accomplish something special that this forum does not. He takes special care to avoid the traps. He says over and over again about the need to transcend words and concepts. That everything being said is not truth, only a pointer. DO THE WORK. And there's no debate. The structure of a forum does not lend itself well to discussing Truth. Anyone can log in and throw their ideas around, and any attempt to correct these ideas just created more story. What I'm suggesting is that there should be no forum posts about consciousness, nonduality, enlightenment, etc, because any attempt is already a step removed. Instead, there should be a carefully groomed resources section and several warnings on trying to conceptualize this stuff. There don't need to be discussions on it.

I understand you, as it is a perspective I shared for a long time. However, I have recently come to a new understanding, and the message above is meant for you to challenge old beliefs. It was difficult because I realized that part of my identity is tied to this forum. I sometimes enjoy talking about nonduality and consciousness, but I was able to get a bird's eye view. I saw that talking about these things wasn't helping me, nor had it ever helped me or anyone else. Consider this: how can you "correct" bad concepts with another concept? It is just more belief, more story. That you created. And this can be helpful for RELATIVE topics, because you can learn more about them from different perspectives. But the absolute cannot be learned or taught, nor can it be viewed from a particular perspective. It transcends perspective! The illusion is that you are learning from others when they try to tell you what IT is. The illusion is that you are helping others when you "correct" their deluded perspectives with more words. It's all a game. Oh it FEELS like you're growing, but all it is is more story for the ego to latch on to. It loves a good story. It loves conceptualizing. It wants to make MORE sense of something that cannot be made sense of. It tries and tries and tries, never satisfied, until one day you realize it was all a game. Words don't mean anything unless you have the body of experience to understand, but at that point you don't need it. The only thing to communicate is that communication can never grasp IT or lead you closer to IT. In fact, it pulls you away from IT. It's helpful to point towards new methods or experiences. It's helpful point out the limitations of language. These are relative matters, so it works.

How so? Only 2 statements can be contradictory, so if there's 3 then there's a more complex relationship going on. I find them agreeable, because they're basically saying that the subject matter of this forum fundamentally can't be communicated.

@StripedGiraffe ego death is when you forget you're a human. You can't remember your name. You just "are." When you experience ego death, you won't need to ask whether you had one or not

That feeling is more real than any interpretation. More real than any words. Go into that. ?

Watching Leo's latest video. "What if depth is the trap?" "If reality is infinite, then why do you keep going down the rabbit hole? There's no end." "What more is there to gain by going deeper?" All these questions popped into my mind. But then I realized something. Leo is just a talking head, myself, letting me know of farther terrain. See, I've been going through a huge transformation lately. This seemed to be a big sign, in neon letters: "I need to work on myself." Just as Leo went through a huge awakening, so have I. So many fears. So much uncertainty. Holding me back. Everything is just a "ping" for me to awaken further. That's all this reality is. My addictions are pleasure without joy. WHAT I'M AFTER IS JOY!!! My neuroses are just cycles that keep me from realizing I'm Infinite, pure Love. OF COURSE!!! Everything is a call to awaken deeper and discover more fruits. How have I been so blind? Do you realize? Everything in YOUR life is moving you closer to God. All you judgments, fears, and insecurities. ALL of it is preparing you to realize your true nature. If you were God, wouldn't that be how you would construct life? We are all scared. But the "you" that's scared is the "you" that must die. The last thing you want is to die. See, this connects with the last season of Mr. Robot, season 4 (can't recommend it enough). SPOILERS. (stop now and watch it on amazon prime unless you don't enjoy a wonderfully crafted and transcendent story. Seriously, you already got what you came for. These following words don't do it justice in the slightest. Watch it.) The "Elliot Alderson" you've been following for 4 seasons is not the "real" Elliot. He suffered from a split personality disorder. So the Elliot you've laughed with, cried with, rooted for, and hated for 4 fucking season has been the dark Elliot. The one who took over without you knowing it. The one who kept the "real" Elliot held hostage in a dream where every fantasy came alive. Almost every fantasy, that is. "You," that person you think you are reading these words on a screen, is the dark Elliot. An invader. Your society raised you this way. Certain traumatic events shaped you this way. "You" are built of walls and resistances to protect you from a cruel world... the one you couldn't love or accept in its totality. Because the real Elliot was raped as a child, he created another personality as a defense mechanism. The child created a monster without knowing it, and that monster started taking more and more control over his life. It was what he always wanted to be. For Elliot, he was an extremely smart little boy, with a Dad who showed him the wonders of computers and other technology. So the "dark" Elliot became a computer hacker who wanted to right all the wrongs in such a cruel society. He wanted to return all the power to the people. He saw all the injustice and wanted to make it right. He created "F-SOCIETY," a vigilante hacker group with the sole mission of taking down the big conglomerates and erasing all debt and economic injustice. If only it were that easy... Reflecting on my own life, what I wanted as a kid came true... I just wanted to play video games, jack off, and shut out the world. Yes, it's all clear to me now. I didn't want anything special. I didn't understand the world. I was spoiled rotten by my parents and became very self-centered. "Why do anything at all? Can't I just... do nothing and play video games? Pleasure myself? If there's no meaning to it all, what's the rush? Career??? Pshhh...." I've been acting out these childish wants for close to 10 years, and I explored their conclusions. It prepared me. Yet the "real" Elliot still calls to me. He's pushing me towards greater self awareness. I've seen things that can't be unseen. Awakening. Psychedelics. I can't stop understanding more about myself. I'm at a point where now where "I see you." The dark Elliot that has been running my life for so long. He's just a child. Scared. But I know he needs to die for the real Elliot to live on. That's how Mr. Robot ends. You see, the dark individuated consciousness watches a movie with his family one last time. He lets go. But he's ready to. He has suffered enough to understand that he's been robbing the real Elliot of the fruits of life. In fact, his whole journey through all 4 seasons has been pushing him to realize this. The last words of the show? His sister leans in, and whispers with heartfelt emotion like she's seeing him for the first time: "Hello, Elliot." The entire show, however dark it may have seemed, was really a potent story about Love. The "dark" part of Elliot was compelled to die, as a sacrifice for the "real" part of himself he never knew. The one thing the real Elliot never experienced in his prison dreamscape, was the love of his sister. We experienced a letting go; a death. But death is just imaginary. It's a necessary mechanic of evolution. For new growth to occur, first must come the destruction of the old. I must embrace that child in me. He's scared of what may happen. But I have to comfort him, and ensure that everything will be alright if he just lets go. There's a partition in all of us that doesn't want to let go. He's scared of the trauma that may be unleashed. Maybe there are experiences you've had that you couldn't love. But you are not that child anymore. You can now face these truths with a new perspective, if you're ready (and don't beat yourself up if you're not ready. It takes time). Let that child die in your arms, reborn. With Love.

@Mongu9719 what if the "cure" already resides within our DNA, and collective awakening unlocks it? So perhaps the question you should be asking is, "What does spirituality mean for our relative, physical existence?"

Haha. You see, from God's point of view, every interpretation is Good. Any one interpretation holds no weight, nor holds any "greater" or "lesser" truth in it. A more important question would be, "How did the poem make you feel?" "What did it inspire within you?"

You mean not everyone has seen EVERY Leo video? Fucking amateurs...

You won't regret it

"I will tell you what the definition is, from the Creator who lives in you. He lives in every one of those Humans who we just interviewed. The love of God is profound for all humanity. A Human who does not believe in God is still loved just as much as the one who is a fundamentalist. Did you know that? The grandeur of the family of Spirit is beautiful, even if you don't see it. Who is enlightened here? "The definition of enlightenment, as Spirit gives it, is this: An enlightened Human Being is one who respects and sees the enlightenment of all. It's the one who can stand and listen to the orthodox and see God inside of him, and see that it's real and it's perfect for him or her. It's the one who can see the Muslim and understand the beauty of what he believes, and who can look at the esoteric person and understand how close they feel to Spirit, and who can look at the banker [average non-spiritual person] and see the same. That is enlightenment. An enlightened Human Being is, therefore, one who emulates the pure attributes of God, rather than any system or that of any other Human. This is also the attribute of Spirit, who will look at every single Human Being with no bias and no preset conditions, and only see family." -- Kryon (channeled through Lee Carroll on October 6, 2015) You see, herein lies the problem with talking of, recommending, or teaching enlightenment. The moment the title "enlightened" is placed on oneself, it separates you from the Love of God. The enlightened do not brag about their enlightenment. The enlightened do not put themselves on a pedestal. The seeker may be disappointed to find that there's nothing to search for. No specific state to reach that may unlock the secrets of the Universe. Every thing already shines the Love of God; every thing already enlightened and enlightening. The only difference is in the understanding and consciousness of your own Enlightenment. The key takeaway is that your level of consciousness is not Enlightenment itself. An enlightened person (who is conscious of his enlightenment) does not need others around him to become enlightened. This need, if it arises, is born out of selfishness because it confirms a sense of lack in others. It doesn't honor the God/Spirit/Mind/Infinity within all. From another angle, enlightenment could also be described as unconditional Love. God's point of view. Think before you try to judge or criticize this. How else would you "define" enlightenment? A rigid definition has already failed, for there are many many levels to "enlightenment." At what level do you draw the line? Are you so arrogant to think that any Human has ever reached the highest level? Perhaps you might say, "The point at which one is conscious of his True Nature." But you should already know that is a limited definition, a realization achieved early on in the path. That does not encapsulate what is traditionally known as enlightenment. See, you just peeled back a single layer of the Infinite Onion; it takes great wisdom to know that you were, are, and will be the Onion whether you know it or not. I hope for you to challenge what you think enlightenment is. The message is that you are God. You are Love. The message is not that you should become enlightened.

@ivankiss Reminds me of the movie Jumper, you may remember it. He could teleport to places he had seen before. He would visualize what it was like to be there, and BAM, instant teleportation. So, have you ever jumped to Paris? And if not, why not?

@Applegarden i think I'm following. Now I may have misunderstood some bits, but I think I may be in this "spicy, alien state" almost all the time. The amount of time I'm in this state, as well as the intensity, has grown over the last 2 years or so. For me, I'm aware I'm in a dream throughout the day. I've completely surrendered the idea of being a "human," of death even being possible. Every experience has a "surreal" flavor to it. This scared the shit out of me at first, but now I'm much more comfortable with it. My headspace can be intense sometimes, making me overly sensitive and analytical about everyday tasks. The best way I can describe it is like I'm always microdosed. If you haven't tried psychedelics before then this explanation won't mean anything, but... is this close at all to what you're going through? I haven't done the consciousness practices yet to be aware of energy centers or flows. If they even exist... I have no beliefs or dogmas about it because I don't have the direct experience.

@Heaven practicing unconditional Love. So any time you feel jealous, angry, hurt, annoyed, etc, practice on forgiveness and letting go of the emotion. See the God in everyone around you, even the ones you don't like. This is the path. Consciousness/alertness/awareness is, at a certain baseline, a given, it is still a skill which can be trained. Rather, what you're training is the control of blockages that get in the way of your true nature. Love is also a skill that must be trained. It may take a year or more of practice to see any noticable changes, but they will come. Your reality will start to manifest in, let's say, different ways. And I guarantee you'll like it!

@Nahm hijack away! ❤️ More people get to see it, and I think there are some good ideas and perspectives in here. I'm interested. Could you please try to explain this in more detail? Can you put your awareness on "it" at any time, and is it an "entity" or just a subtle shift in consciousness?

There's no point in trying to intellectualize any of this. If you intellectualize long enough, counter-intuitively it just points back to being. And believe me, I've done that, however I don't recommend it because you'll waste a lot of time in mind games and traps. Trying to grasp the hand with the hand is a futile pursuit. Trying to intellectualize your way through this is like insisting on taking the path through the enchanted forest in Lord of the Rings. The fog will envelop you, trick you. Make you lose your mind. And if you make it out of the forest alive, you'll be right back where you started, just armed with the knowledge of the direct path being the one and why it's the one. You'd understand the limits of the enchanted forest path and why it was a dead end. The direct path is in the opposite direction, so to speak.