@soos_mite_ah
If you don't mind, I Just want to offer my perspective. Not trying to argue yours in any way, simply offering mine.
I think one can look at this situation both objectively and subjectively.
Yes there is compassion in both sides.
I preside with the objective side meanwhile keeping room for the subjective side as well.
I understand that certain comments on the forum could have caused Sunny to think that death is not a big deal and how some teachings could have made him not realise the seriousness of Death.
Many things to unpack here.
1 One that these teachings do not belong to Leo or Actualized Org exclusively or to forum members. These teachings are worldwide non dual teachings and are similar in all spiritual communities. These teachings carry an inherent risk which most people bypass since they understand the objective nature of reality and do not take subjective teachings with a grain of salt.
Leo Gura or people of the forum are in no way responsible for inventing these teachings. They already exist.
2 Leo has made so many videos which talk about the dangers of spiritual teachings and practice. There are many many videos on this. I can give you links if you want.
Not just Leo, there are tons of people in spiritual communities that issue such warnings.
3 Leo has consistently helped people who have been suicidal to not be suicidal. He has always been very life affirming. In fact his videos have helped many many people to recover from depression and suicide ideation. Even tacitly implying in a video that Leo could be responsible for this is a huge blunder.
4 Leo has gone out of his way in the forum guidelines to issue warnings about how his teachings shouldn't be taken with a grain of salt and that this is not a cult. Cult is a huge term that involves a lot of things. It involves threatening and pressuring people to do things for the leader. This is just group think. An echo chamber mentality but just borderline Echo chamber. It's not like Leo does not allow independent thinking here. He absolutely does. Leo doesn't control anyone's behaviour. Leo does not tell what people should do. For someone to constantly keep refering to this as a cult is a very childish. In being critical of his video, there was no cult behaviour shown.. I simply said that he is misrepresenting things and that can easily appear as slander and this is no cult like behaviour.
Leo has himself said many times that this is not a cult.
5 I think every adult knows that suicide is a wrong option. This need not be specifically told. Leo has also said that his spirituality is not designed for those who have mental illnesses and who do not understand his teachings properly.
6 Often people misinterpret teachings. Leo like any other spiritual teacher is not exempt to this situation. Many people might misconstrue his teachings and he cannot help. He cannot have the resources to help each and every person or figure out exactly they are taking his actions. That's a tall order that is impossible to fill.
7 People on the forum had absolutely no clue that the guy was suicidal in any way or if he had such intent. In fact, he wasn't suicidal in the traditional kind of way. Most suicidal people exhibit overly emotional behaviours and usually talk about it openly to people. Or they leave clues that they are depressed. However Sunny did not leave such clues. He appeared quite happy, optimistic and positive. Also that he used to talk in a poetic manner, there was no way to exactly know if he was being serious or simply dancing around concepts. So most people here are innocent because they didn't have any beforehand knowledge and by his demeanor could not have known that he was about to kill himself. This innocence needs to be considered and it's a big factor. Had these people known that he was going to do that, then they would have obviously told the person to not do it. We here as a community, including me, have always helped people with suicidal thoughts. This is not some suicide death cult. Here people are very keen on telling people to not self harm. It's the opposite environment here. Well I feel very sad that Sunny did what he did, I also understand that if he even slightly tried to openly express his intention, people would have jumped to action. Not blaming him but suggesting that this action from his end could have easily prevented this from happening.
Also these people are not only innocent but are also dealing with grief. They had the best intentions and interests for Sunny. So if they are being blamed,it's a double blow on top of dealing with the grief of losing someone who they considered a friend
8 There is something called as self ownership and personal responsibility which cannot be dismissed or taken for granted. Neither in this nor in any other case. Sunny had a wife and kids. I cannot imagine leaving my kids alone behind. With marriage and kids personal responsibility gets tighter and stricter because now you're not only responsible for your own self but also responsible for the lives of others that you brought into this world through marriage. Sunny had a huge responsibility to his family. Even if he is a suicide victim, he was still accountable for how his actions were to impact his family. Self responsibility and ownership is not a blame game. It's about telling a person that they also have the power to do things that they are accountable for. In this case, I see a bit of recklessness in this department. The person was expected to show a certain level of responsibility on how his actions might impact his children in the future. He should have reflected on his thoughts and been vocal about it. He wasn't being actively coerced or coached or directed or brainwashed into killing himself. There is no such evidence. Because he never openly talked about suicide. Suicide and death are two different things. Suicide is a serious situation and he never said he was suicidal. And death in spiritual communities can easily mean spiritual death, ego death etc. One cannot know for sure what a person might be alluding to.
I often do not agree with Leo or ANY spiritual teacher or psychonaut that ever claims any experience of any kind, psychedelic or not, as being Enlightenment or realizing Absolute Truth as Enlightenment is not nor will ever be an experience. Having said that, Leo is not responsible for this guy's death. Leo has gone to extensive ends, more than any spiritual teacher or even psychonaut, when it comes to the dangers of spiritual and contemplative work and of course the use of psychedelics.
Leo advocates and has taught from the beginning taking and also recognizing one's personal 100% responsibility for one's choices and actions. This guy is responsible for acting on his own impulses, desires, and delusions and that's not on anyone, to be quite frank. Leo is transparent and clear when it comes to the dangers in this work. He encourages all the time in his work for people to slow down and to approach this work with, caution, skepticism, open-mindedness, an understanding of the propensity of the mind to delude itself, that this work isn't for everyone, and much more.
Examples of such things mentioned in his
videos:
- The Dangers Of Spiritual Work
- Understanding Ego Backlash
Self-Deception Part 1
Self Deception- Part 2-60+ Self
Deception Mechanisms
Self-Deception Part 3
- The Role Of Balance In Personal
Development
Becoming A Zen Devil - The Dangers Of
Half-Assing Enlightenment
-The Dark Side Of Meditation
- How To Use Psychedelics For Personal
Development
On his website/forum:
https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/7-guidelines/
https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/36-seek-professional-help-for-serious-issues-important/
There is empathy and compassion in wanting someone to be responsible as well.
This is just my objective way of looking at it. Meanwhile I don't say that the subjective is entirely wrong but I don't want to lose sight of the obvious objectivity in this matter. There are nuances of course, but the major points aren't wrong either.
I'm not trying to offer this from a point of judgement but rather compassion which is not easily visible on the outside however considering these points might prevent someone from taking their lives in the future. And take this work very seriously.
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