tsuki

@Fleetinglife Do you think it's fair to judge against this material based on one of the previous ones where the author's livelihood was at stake? Is the current material biased in your opinion? I didnt notice any bias against Russia in this one.

@zazen Thank you for sharing this material. It was very informative. Looks like whatever warfare we face next (conventional, or economical) polarization is imminent. The more the EU sanctions Russia, the more incentives it has to consolidate its alliance with China, thus forming a counterweight for EU and NATO, which is the Putin's goal all along.

@BlueOak You are welcome, never would have guessed that this thread could cause such gratitude. I'm happy for you ?

@BlueOak But maybe this is a distinction between Eastern and Western cultures in general? Western cultures promote individualism and personal expression, while at scale they become collectives that accept plurality of perspectives. Eastern cultures, on the other hand, promote collectivism on the individual level - becoming a "good member of society", while at the collective level they assume one identity. Maybe, what we negatively judge as "propaganda" in the West, is what Eastern cultures use as a regular means of communication, and thus built individual identity at the collective level? Maybe we judge it negatively because we've been raised in a culture that promotes individual freedom as a highest virtue and it offends us because of our conditioning? If you look at it this way, why is it wrong for a person to accept a social narrative, if it resonates with their heart? Some narratives, such as in Russia, don't sit well with the society, while some do. If we distance ourselves from our upbringing and forget that individual freedom is the highest virtue, then how would we tell which side is "correct"?

So, your point hinges on the distinction between "true Russian POV" vs "false Russian POV". How do you make this distinction? Is the "true POV" the one that causes the decisions to be made? In that case, Putin's (or Lukashenko's) POV is the true Russian POV. Or maybe the "true POV" is the one that most of the Russians share (which may be in a disagreement with Putin's)? Are we trying to understand why Russia (as in: Putin) made the call to invade Ukraine, or are we trying to assess the "Russian spirit" that is the people's will? What value does the people's will bring to this discussion if it was clearly ignored? Or maybe you are referring to Putin's ulterior motives, to which we have no access? Is there a point to guessing them if we assume that the information that is publicly available is propaganda and is aimed to throw us off?

Yes, I'm going to spend a lot of time explaining my subject knowledge to you, because you demonstrated your ability to listen in a non-judgmental way. </sarcasm> I have not studied the subject in any depth whatsoever. I'm only here because my wife is freaking out that we will have WW3 and she calms down when she sees that I'm interested in the subject. I would rather endure your petty squabbles than her wild imagination, so humor me some more with your projections please. Like I told you before, I am not being serious and you refuse to acknowledge my words. Your rhetoric suggests that you are concerned with my views on various subjects and that you want the best for me, but that is not the case. What you are concerned with is that I am saying things that are unpopular/hurtful or otherwise offensive. I don't think that what Putin is doing is right, nor do I think that he has any right to do it. What I am saying is that he did it, and I want to know why. If you want to feel better (which is a very valid pursuit in this situation), then maybe start a thread where you can express your emotions on the subject and find like-minded people to join you?

Tone your rhetoric down, you know nothing about me. In dictatorial states, "the people" don't make decisions. In dictatorial states, the government is the country, hence "willingly".

Maybe I am. Thank you for not forcing me into changing my views, but talking with me instead.

And just to be clear, I think that the idea of forcing other nations to join an alliance is astronomically stupid. I know that because I personally was the receiving end of such an idea, as well as my country in the past. As far as I know, Russia never had the opportunity to see how the other end works, so it is not too surprising to me that they think that this is a good idea. But frankly, I'm not sure whether or not they learned from the fall of the Soviet Union. Maybe they have to try construct it for the second time just to learn this lesson?

No, I haven't. What you are proposing is to stop listening to what he has to say. You are painting him basically as a devious animal that has the destruction of the world in mind. I think that his ambitions are much more modest. He wants a second alliance to counter NATO's and EU dominance, but he's not going to give economical incentives to join, but will use force to coerce other nations that he deems ideologically/ethnically similar. He will spin a narrative along the lines of "We Russians should stick together" and expect other countries to follow. Either willingly (Belarus), or not (Ukraine). Obviously, red thinking is shining through, but what I'm seeing here so far is that the proposed solution is simply "he's a madman, we should sanction him", or "he wants war so he shall have one". This solution is only going to bring more destruction and suffering. You cannot fight red out of being red, nor can you effectively punish it. What I am proposing is that we should somehow accept Russia's existence and stage of development and learn to cope with it. I myself still struggle with seeing them as mentally disabled to some degree, but there has to be a way to make peace with their way of thinking and a way to effectively communicate. What I am definitely not going to do is to join the narrative of "Russians are stupid/Putin is having a seizure", because it completely blocks any opportunity to learn from this difficult time. And I am not saying this lightly like some of you may, I live in Poland, which has first row view of the things that happen in Ukraine.

We would know that if we were genuinely interested what constitutes "national interest" in Putin's eyes, which by the way is the definition of a good relationship/alliance.

@Danioover9000 If you start your own thread, I will rally to your aid whenever it gets too serious ?

@ItsNick Thank you for sharing. That was a valuable find.

@Gesundheit2 Care to spill your point?

@BlueOak What you just described is the definition of survival and suffering: unwillingness to adapt to circumstances that are changing. This is not about masculinity, which is the pursuit of truth. That is plain old ignorance, a false conviction that the world should be one way over the other.

I'm looking for people to ally with so that I can defend the sovereignity of this thread. We can sometimes raid other threads when they are too much fun, but we will first demonize them to convince ourselves (or the public) that our cause is right. This will be the funniest thread in this forum, even if we have to shit all over it. Who's with me?

@Ryan_047 If you haven't noticed, I created this thread and I declare its independence from your seriousness. This is now a wholly unserious thread. Let the memes commence!

@Ryan_047 I'm not being serious with these comments. I'm not going to argue over a YouTube short with a snippet of Putin probably taken out of context.

@Ryan_047 Sure, values as in: can we profit off of the same countries?

So, you think that the right of admission to NATO is moral purity?

https://youtube.com/shorts/x_kklaLR5E0?feature=share

YouTube keeps sending me gems/fuel: https://youtube.com/shorts/nmjCu5HYGk0?feature=share

@Fleetinglife Please use punctuation in your posts. Your latest one was interesting but it defeated me halfway through.

@hello1234 Nobody is going to babysit you through your bullshit and close-mindendess. Keep quiet and learn from others, that is the only way forward.

They are both threated as pariahs by NATO countries.