tsuki

@Faceless This is it. That is the movement I am speaking about. It is not a movement through effort, but via seeing through the past. Can you observe as the past is being accumulated and then discarded via stepping foot on a new world? This new world is 'empty' because it is not yet populated by observation of how this movement itself works. Once this knowledge is accumulated, the next step is taken. Into a new world. It is not a movement of effort, of trying to understand myself. It is effortless. I can see through myself as if I saw through a fraud. In this sense, there is an interplay of knowledge and seeing through. This very text is a knowledge of how it works and once I can see through it, I take a next step into the 'unknown'. It is the moment of 'death' and then, the empty observer is born. It feels like a self-constructing tower of observers, all looking down, and the moment one is born, the other watches him and understands what he does. In doing that, the one being watched vanishes and the next is born, watching the watcher.

@MarkusSweden Huh, wouldn't the same be true for the person that meditated for 20 years? Would that person be willing to start philosophizing? Why can't we do both? Because we have to commit to either one, or the other?

@Nahm Let's just keep being presents for each other to unwrap . There is unity in the mutual friction of the Ego.

@Faceless Bingo. That is what Observation of fear feeds on. This is what keeps it in motion. As I write this sentence, it ate itself, as it implied that it fears fear.

@Nahm Are you willing to find your answer as you wrote it within my answer as I wrote it? I can see agreement between us. There is a clue in my signature.

@Nahm To 'me' that felt attacked? No. The gift was the attacked 'me' for the embodied self-awareness to unpack. The feeling was just the paper that I found myself wrapped in. Thank you for your question.

@GreenDragon It is good that you can distill observation into conclusions. That is an important skill. The other important skill is to actually keep them open without agreeing, or disagreeing with them and seeing for yourself how long they can last on their own. Why people misunderstand non-duality is because it directly dismantles many beliefs they hold as meaningful. For example: Christian culture under superficial inspection claims that you are separate from god.

Funny how personally attacked I feel by this thread.

@Faceless Are you going to address this post? Can the movement that passively 'feeds off' be observed? Try reading your own posts and observe as you become 'disinterested' in them. Can you (passively) observe this passive observation of dualities in the text? This passive observation of duality is what effortlessly 'disarms' them so that they do not attract and form knowledge. How about this then: As you read this text in which I'm describing the disarming movement, this very movement is what disarms what I'm describing. Storing knowledge that starts the thought 'for good' is impossible because whatever is perceived is being disarmed, even this very text. This balance between construction of meaning (thought) and destruction of meaning (insight) is what keeps the balance. As I have described this very movement by introducing meaning to it, it disarms it and becomes 'stronger'. Stronger in the sense that it can now see through itself and becomes something else, unknown to itself. It is impossible to tell whether this movement is in fact still, or in motion. It perpetuates its own operation by negation of meaning. In this sense it is like conditioned mind, but opposite in nature. This is the root of dynamic stillness. Creation and annihilation of meaning through inattentive observation. This is the nature of infinite creativity. Try describing it yourself and observe yourself as you do it. You have to observe the text and observe the observer at the same time.

@Zweistein How about that? Beige - The unknown as unity Purple - Split of the unknown into the 'self' and the 'other'. Red - Recognition of meaning that separates 'the self' and 'the other' Blue - Recognition of possibility of common meaning and co-existence for the sake of it Orange - Unity of 'the self' and 'the other' under creation of independent meaning Green - Total unity through recognition of creation as meaning. Next tiers undergo the same steps, but with respect to various kinds of meaning. EDIT: Nope, I don't like the creation part. It should be more ambiguous like 'action' or 'movement'.

@Saumaya @Faceless This is the nature of infinite creativity. It produces knowledge 'out of nowhere' and then, as you write it, it understands the conditioned parts of it. In seeing of its own conditioning by inspecting its own writing, it becomes more aware of the conditioning. That is why creativity deepens as you write. In a sense - it becomes its own fuel. This is how infinite creativity works. It is a positive feedback loop. This is the nature of boudlessness. See my signature.

@Faceless It is not intellectualization if you are willing to look into it yourself. The point it not to understand what I write, but to understand what you write, by reading your own writing. It is not 'a point' for any reason in particular that seeks better circumstances. It is only in the unconditioned mind that rejects reasons that growth is rejected because it implies something else. One can still grow for no reason, even if there is nowhere to grow. Just as there is dynamic stillness, there is also constant growth that does not imply change. Paradox is what the 'conditioned mind' is always-rejecting. It is the 'vs' that constitutes the difference between yes and no. Paradox is what the 'unconditioned mind' is always-accepting. It is the '=' what constitutes the unity of yes and no. Reason and no-reason are not mutually exclusive. They are the mirror image of one another. By turning reason inside-out, you do not abolish reason. You just turn limit into limitlessness, which is a constant state of anti-reason. To the mind that is bound by reason, the reason is not a limit. To the mind that is bound by no reason, the reason is a limit. The unconditioned mind is defined in opposition to the conditioned mind. The conditioned mind sees what itself does and transcends its own limit by flipping inside-out. As far as I can recall, you mentioned that your son has started to build his head. How is it possible to turn headful from headless? This is the same movement of flipping inside-out. This flipping movement that annihilates the mind into nothing is what constitutes infinite creativity. That is, however established only on the basis of actual understanding of the workings of the mind. It is possible to flip inside-out this very flipping by careful inspection of what it does. Inquire into that, friend. The conditioned mind is not a disease to be cured that produces symptoms. It is co-present within the unconditioned mind. The only difficulty is to see its annihilated nature. It is not a movement of measure. You only see it as a movement of measure because you treat the movement of measure as a symptom of the conditioned mind to be cured. Can you see how the unconditioned mind sees the conditioning everywhere? It is the compulsive seeking of conditioning for no particular reason. And it is content with having no reason for it. You may call my post the movement of measure only because the no-mind sees it. It is not something bad. It is something to be aware of, for no particular reason. Language is not dualistic. The no-mind is bound by duality between duality and non-duality. Treat it as a chance to self-inquire into the nature of headlessness. A state that has no nature is a state defined in opposition to nature. The annihilated-mind feeds off this flipping. See it for yourself. This, and thank you for your open-annihilated-mindedness .

@robdl The unconditioned mind is not bound by no reason for a reason. It is bound by no reason for no reason.

@Faceless Necessity is not the reason for action. You are not bound by necessity, and yet - you still do things. That is precisely the point.

@robdl @Faceless Let's pick this apart. But first, let me get back to my original question: What is neither [yes], nor [no], and yet it feels as if it is both [yes] and [no] at the same time? In the 'conditioned mind' there is the duality of fear vs desire. In the 'unconditioned mind', the duality of fear and desire is unitary. To this 'unconditioned mind', it is not that it is either fear, or desire, but that it is both and neither. To the 'unconditioned mind', it is not that it is either fear, or desire, but that fear = desire. So, as we observe the 'unconditioned mind', we can see that it introduces the third 'choice' (choice here being a special word denoted with apostrophes). To the unconditioned mind, there is yes, there is no, and there is yes=no. Here, I am denoting 'choice' as a special word, as for you, the word choice denotes the movement of the conditioned mind. The unconditioned mind, however, sees yes and no as not free. The unconditioned mind, then rejects yes and no on the basis of freedom and pursues the yes=no. This is the nature of infinite/sacred creativity. This infinite/sacred creativity is still conditioned in the sense, that it always rejects the [yes and no] and turns [yes=no]. Not because there is a reason to reject them, but because it rejects reasons. The movement of infinite creativity is not a no-mind state, but an anti-mind state. The conditioned mind is bound by reason, and the unconditioned mind is, paradoxically, bound by no reason. The unconditioned mind is still a conditioned mind, but flipped upside-down.

@Zweistein Not arrogant at all. I have an intuition that Spiral Dynamics is the hero's journey in disguise if zoomed (and vice versa). Are we willing to explore it?

@Faceless I am not asking these questions to know the answer, as the answer cannot be known. I am asking them to point something out to you. What is neither [yes], nor [no], and yet it feels as if it is both [yes] and [no] at the same time?

@Faceless What is the third option to yes and no? There is yes, there is no, and there is X. What is X? Inquire into the nature of X.

@Faceless Can we observe that time implies [yes or no] and timelessness 'sees' the third option? What is the difference between [yes or no] and the third option?

@Faceless Thank you for this post! Very good. Very, very good!!! Here are some questions for you to contemplate (innerly, or here on the forum). Is there duality between fragmentation and wholeness? Is there a non-volition movement away from fragmentation towards wholeness? Is wholeness attractive and fragmentation repulsive? ( ^^^^^^ these are actually the same question) Is there a difference between [yes or no] and [neither yes nor no]?

@now is forever Yes Beliefs are born and instantly annihilated. It is neither that I'm still, nor in motion. Constant zoom. This conversation so far was a fuel to start this reaction.

@SoonHei Reasoning is not something you should reject. Why don't you follow every single why the mind gives you and see if you can really ground it in anything? Notice that you can always ask why, but sometimes you won't be able to give an answer. Notice that sometimes reasons go in circles, as in A->B->C->D->E->...->A->B. Do not take my word for it. You have to see for yourself. Neither trust me, nor do not trust me. Keep an open mind and investigate.

@SoonHei What does it matter whether you want something or not? Do you also want to want? No, but the wanting is still there. If you can want without wanting to want, then why do you need to want to do something else? Wanting is groundless. You are being pulled left and right by the forces you are yet to recognize. After you recognize them - all you have to do is own up to them.

@now is forever Hey, I just wanted to let you know that I acknowledged your inner child. I won't pick on it any longer. Sorry. We're both looking for wholeness, but in the opposite directions. To me, motion is whole and indivisible. To you, stillness is whole and indivisible. Both are fine.

@Cortex The greatest super power is the willingness to face life without them.