RendHeaven

Exactly what the title says. Most members of modern society are between spiral dynamics stage blue and green. Stage green+ people have some vague sense of consciousness (usually an image instead of the real thing... but nonetheless the word rings intuitive bells within them) so there's really no need to explain anything there. Well, really there is no need to explain anything to anyone, but occasionally there are times when I am talking to blue/orange relatives and friends and I see the perfect opportunity to mention Consciousness to make a point - about politics, psychology, or whatever - and yet I choke on that word because I realize "this means nothing to them!" After all, what is a "more conscious person" or a "less conscious person" to someone in blue/orange mentality? Does that even exist to them? For example, I may want to say that, "Donald Trump is an unconscious person." Of course this statement is relative and from my perspective, only partially true and even sometimes false, (or both, or the distinction is meaningless!) and yet if I were to say this to a stage green+ person they would "get it." There is no further need to explicate what I mean. With stage blue/orange, I may say that statement and get blank stares - and something in me tells me that further explicating this word "consciousness" is not the way to go since then I begin to ground one meaning within another meaning, which ultimately misses the mark entirely: that consciousness is the groundless ground. So maybe it's just better to conjure metaphors, although orange tends to hate that (blue might like it though ) Currently I just bite my tongue and swerve this topic altogether around certain people, but I'd like to change that if I could.

He might be right, though. Maybe one day it won't be so irritating... it's good to keep an open mind

I really like this idea, I am thinking of stating a Youtube channel where I do just that...

Yes great points all around, the problem is doubly tricky when you consider that it's not just a matter of explicating the right words, because a lot of the times the right words will enrage them! (I mean, imagine making that environment metaphor to someone at stage orange who doesn't give a shit about the environment, and instead of learning something about awareness/consciousness, it becomes an ethical debate about how humans ought to treat the planet) It's definitely a matter of tiptoe-ing around their egos, I mean we could have a whole different thread on that dynamic alone. Thanks for the responses though, it gives me a lot to contemplate

@remember Yes, thank you that was sort of what I was trying to get at. I've already acknowledged the limitations of the use of the word "consciousness." What that means could be literally anything! But going back to my original example: "Donald Trump is an unconscious person," I think it's somewhat true that I wouldn't have to explain that to a hippie in California at her yoga class. She would just say, "yes, of course!" Your suggestion is spot on, I think - that you have to sort of "bring it down to their level" in a sense, with the goal being a mere "aha, I get it!" This is really hard in practice though, because you will necessarily have to compromise your original meaning. For example, to a stage blue person you might say, "Donald Trump is a bad person," and follow that with "because he is greedy." And all of those things are a cousin of "unconsciousness," yet of course the two are not the same thing. Merely calling Trump "bad" and "greedy" misses how he is exactly like you and I, with perhaps just a little less... what, awareness? (from certain perspectives). @Roy Though the problem with namedropping "awareness" is that you then have to explain THAT in the same way that you would have to explain "consciousness," so in a sense you are sent back to square 1. I know it might sound like I'm making this unnecessarily complicated, but I'm a communicator at heart and this is something that I've been wrestling with for a while so apologizes for all the winding responses

1) That's not quite my intention - intellectual flexing isn't on my mind when approaching discourse. It's possible to hold an idea in your mind and to want to communicate it from a place of sharing and mutual learning. Notice that It's not a matter of "convincing." If someone completely disagrees with me but still manages to grasp in some form where I am coming from, that's a success to me. 2) Do you think you can give an example of what "nudging" looks like?

@Malken Hmm, but what about the example of "Donald Trump is an unconscious person" Is what's being described - unconsciousness - a mentality? Is that a state? Yes, No, Maybe so... (It really depends on the one judging) Let's grant for now that "Unconsciousness" really is a "mentality" or a "state." Let's imagine that conversation: Me: Donald Trump is an unconscious person. Blue/Orange: What do you mean by "unconscious person?" Me: Unconsciousness is a state of mind. Blue/Orange: So you're saying that Donald Trump has a state of mind of unconsciousness? Me: Yes! Blue/Orange: Maybe at night when he's asleep! But he's awake during the day and fully conscious, just like the rest of us. Me: That's not what I meant! Not literally whether or not he is awake or sleeping - but rather _____________ Try to fill in the blank

@Lento lmao alright buddy

@Serotoninluv Interesting! Sounds like you are proposing that we (as egos) are all on a spectrum of unity and fragmentation? Though, I wonder how the amnesia plays a role. Literally forgetting your memories seems to be the crux of this "disorder." Maybe forgetting is the very thing elucidating that "oh, it isn't just me in control of this body!" That's not something that "normal" people deal with. (I use the terms "disorder" and "normal" for the sake of communication. Personally not a fan of this dichotomy)

Extremely informative and eye-opening video. It seems that when shifting through identities, these people have a sort of amnesia that "resets" their memories. I wonder what spirituality work would be like for these people? Is it possible to awaken? Does it even matter if you get "reset" the next day? It's so interesting that when asked "how many identities do you have?" they all give a concrete number such as "16" or "9." Would ego death eradicate all of them into pure awareness at once? Would they all understand oneness? Or would it be that "ID#1 awakes" while "ID#2 sleeps?" Of course I speak of these people as though they were separate from me. I also speak of various states as though they were different things. I don't feel particularly awake right now, so entertain the relativity of my question for now please

wow, the irony... 0_o

There's your bias. Stage yellows don't argue or debate. And really, in true discourse there is no "winning" or "losing." That fantasy is just so silly. The mystic would have to stoop SO low to "debate" Sam. So of course he will not do that! Regarding your question, Sam certainly has a massive bias toward rationality and survival that he is not willing to admit. Notice, I am NOT calling him unintelligent, nor am I saying that he is not persuasive. Of course he is highly intelligent and very persuasive! But intelligence and persuasiveness are NOT what the categories of the spiral are based on. The categories of the spiral are based on perspective. The "higher" you climb, the wider your perspective is. For Sam to reach yellow, he must widen his perspective.

St Augustine I think is one of the few ancient Christian theologians who stumbled across genuine non-duality (whereas others like Aquinas get caught up in Aristotelian dualities as though they are absolute). He details his journey in the Confessions. Highly recommend this read since it reminds us that the roots of Christianity come from stage turquoise+ oneness!

Excellent set up exploring the ambiguity of race (and questioning its relative and arbitrary nature) but it's a shame that his conclusions were at a content-level instead of a structure-level. If he had fully parsed out this exploration, he would have seen that all racial categories are projections of the mind with no objective grounding, including non-white races. It seemed to me that he destroyed "whiteness" while allowing for the validity of "non-whiteness." Structurally, these categories are no different. It's ALL a sham.

I'm not a youtuber myself (yet... hehe) so my imput is not an informed one, but I honestly believe that "quantity over quality in the beginning" as you've illustrated is a myth. Now, don't spend an year on your first video just to get 5 views because it makes no sense to do that, but certainly don't make bad quality content on purpose for the sake of pumping out more stuff. I see this all the time, small channels with a hundred uploads and all the videos are frankly "throwaway" videos. The vid that was shot a year ago is lost in the nether because not only did the audience not care... neither did the creator. Make something you will be proud of keeping up on your channel in 1 year's time.

Best suggestion yet

You got this Happy new year.

@Anna1 Most people are wedded to their worldview. It's amazing to see, but really not so shocking

...that made no sense lol. As to OP's question, it doesn't matter and you are over-analyzing minutia. There are bigger fish to fry

I know this isn't your idea or the way that you think, but the hypothetical "scientific" explanation you've given is not clear or coherent. It's tough to answer since the claim being made is unclear.

Lead by example!

Lol you misunderstand Leo and then mock that very same misunderstanding as though it were not you who came up with it. That's pretty funny too!

I'm not sure what to make of this...

what makes you think "things" "fall?"

I don't know if that's a fair interpretation of the average modern zen master (in Japan). I went to visit some temples this summer and was struck by how cheery many of the masters were.