Leo Gura

Haha, how unbiased of you. Palestinians lose more lives than Israelis every year. Much more.

So are you saying Israel should take all the Palestinian land? What are the Palestinians supposed to do? And if you suggest to wipe them out, then of course they will do terrorist attacks on you.

That's a good way to put it.

Nobody supports Russian's grabbing land other than Russia. Russia is in the wrong when it tries to steal land. So we put sanctions on them. I don't think Israel needs US aid so much. Israel is prosperous enough to take care of themselves. US aid is like a cherry on top. And asshole behavior shouldn't get a cherry on top. Cherry on top is for good behavior.

Blunt tool? Not stealing land is a blunt tool? That's all we're asking. Israel can still build up their military as much as they want and attack any militant groups.

Nah, you don't have to be weak, you just need to hold the moral high ground. For example, after 9/11 the US got lots of international sympathy, even though the US is the strongest military power. But after the foolish invasion of Iraq the US lost its moral high ground and lost a right to sympathy. Israeli land grabbing is the moral equivalent of the US invading Iraq. The proper thing to do is to defend your country without stealing or attacking others. Of course I'm not saying this is easy.

The problem is that Israelis specifically want THAT land, not any other. Because their Bible idolizes it.

But even so, it doesn't justify land grabbing. It is possible to defend your house without also stealing other people's houses. Yes, Israel needs a strong defense. No problem there. They are capable of it and they would get international support for it.

Like I said, it's a vicious strange loop.

Well, I'm not expecting them to do it. But I'm saying that if they wish to hold the moral high ground and get our sympathy, then they should focus on defense and not stealing land. If they steal land then all I'm saying is that they lose sympathy and funding from the international community. They can behave however they want. But we get to choose who we support. They have no right to expect unconditional support. Support should be conditional on non-aggravating behavior.

Yes, that is a complicating factor. However Zionists would steal land even if that issue was pacified.

But stealing more land is not going to help protect your people. It only makes matters worse. Israeli stealing of land is not about self-defense, Zionists have a radical ideology which tells them that God gave that land to them. So even if Israel was not threatened from outside, right-wing Zionists would still push to grab all that land because they believe it belongs to them from the Bible.

Of course US supports Israel. My opinion is that the US should only support Israel if Israel agrees to stop grabbing more land. If Israel insists on settlement expansion then it should not get support or much sympathy. A thief should not be allowed to cry for sympathy. But a non-thief should. Israel is like a child who keeps stealing food from the other children, but then cries when those children hit back. The solution must involve stop stealing food, not stealing faster and in more clever ways.

I don't think stealing bunches of Palestinian land is ethical. By historical standards its not that bad, but standards also rise as mankind develops. For the 21st century, stealing land is not acceptable. 200 years ago it would be a different matter.

I understand what you're saying, however the psychology of being severely victimized is that eventually your position is so dire that achieving your purpose becomes impossible, so your purpose now becomes to lash out and cause as much damage to the bully as possible. That's what happens when you've been backed into a impossible corner. Israel is responsible for this dire cornering. In order to stop the violence Israel needs to give the Palestinians a decent out. Which Israel doesn't want to do because they want to selfishly grab more land.

I suggest that that's not due to some moral superiority, but due to their material power differential. Israel has a much stronger position so they bully in a more "civilized" way. Hamas is rational because their position is so weak that they don't have any other choice. It's not like they can negotiate to stop the Zionist settlement expansion. Right-wing Zionists are hellbent to keep grabbing more land. Precisely because Israel is in a strong material position the burden is on them to stop grabbing more land so that a peace agreement can be reached. But they refuse to do that. And then they act surprised when Palestinians get violent. This is like poking a hornet's nest with a stick and then acting surprised when the hornets attack. Israel is free to defend itself from attacks, but the land grabbing needs to stop. If Israel insists on grabbing more land then they are not allowed to cry when attacks happen. You can't steal land and not expect attacks. That's like robbing a bank and then crying when you get shot at. Theft of property is a kind of violence because property must be defended with violence.

And how much better would you fare if you were a Palestinian? Terror is bad, however people are not driven to terror by nothing. They are driven into it by gross injustices and lack of any alternatives. If someone is bullied long enough he will eventually lash out in violence. Israel does plenty of bullying of Palestinians, even if it's not direct violence. The whole problem is that Israel is strong enough to bully Palestinians without explicit violence.

I have handled the situation with @Roy . He is no longer a Mod. A few offensive posts and their replies have been deleted from this thread. Please keep your political opinions respectful and civil.

Do not spread wild conspiracy theories unless you have solid evidence.

I don't think Netanyahu is as bad as liberals make him out to be. He is a reasonable guy. Right-wing but not insane right-wing like MAGA or fascists. He is not some dictator.

Their deep frustrations with Zionist settlement expansion and occupation.

I think Netanyahu is a great leader from the Zionist POV. If you believe in Zionism then I don't think you can do much better than him.

Hamas has plenty of reason to want to do this attack.

War makes people more patriotic, nationalistic, and conservative.

Don't trust my analysis, do your own analysis.