Leo Gura

@Extreme Z7 That's basically how the process unfolds. Yes, it can be infuriating. Like trying to nail Jello to a wall. It just refuses to cooperate. The secret is to not get discouraged or distracted. Stay with it and you'll experience a lot of growth fairly quickly, even without enlightenment. Many illusions will fall away as you keep at it. It can be helpful to keep a journal to write all the illusions out of your system. Although self-observation isn't a theoretical process, it can be very helpful to purge as much theory as possible to thinking it through and dumping it on paper or even to a listening partner. After much of the theory has been purged, true self-observation can begin.

It takes time to build up the momentum. It really helps to have at least one glimpse of the divine nature of reality. Psychedelics can be a gateway to that glimpse. People who break through on a psychedelic (assuming a non-party atmosphere) will then tend to become interested in spiritual development. After my 5-meo experience, my desire is unshakable. The truth is more amazing than a 1000 orgasms. Deep suffering can also create desire for liberation, fueling self-inquiry. Doing a week-long meditation or consciousness retreat can also create deep desire. Visiting an ashram and basking in it's incredible high-consciousness energy can also create deep desire. Contemplating your own death and how much of your life you've wasted can also create deep desire. "I don't know" is a great answer. Make sure you really mean it though. Do you REALLY not know? Or are you just saying that when in fact if I put a gun up to your head and tell you I'm gonna pull the trigger you're gonna start to beg me not to because you actually know that you're that body/brain? I bet you'd know real quick in that case. Which means you don't really not-know. To REALLY not-know what you are means that you ACTUALLY don't know! Which means that if I told you that you might be a chocolate covered donut, you'd seriously consider it. To ACTUALLY not know what you are means that you can't say for sure whether you're a coffee table or a human being. The reality of what you really are is much weirder than identifying with a coffee table. Becoming a coffee table is easy by comparison. At least a coffee table is an object.

If you are being constructive, non-hostile, intellectually charitable, and seeking to REALLY understand the diversity of perspectives out there -- rather than pushing your perspective -- then we have no problem. That is totally allowed. Even though the difference between the word "debate" and "dialogue" may seem trivial, in actuality they are totally different things. If you ever hear a true dialogue between two minds trying to work constructively, it's totally different than a debate. For an example of that, see the dialogues between David Bohm and Krishnamurti. That is true dialogue. They are not working against each other. Whereas the kind of stuff you see all over the internet or TV, that's mindless egoic debating.

@Motus Debate does not serve an educational or consciousness-raising purpose. It serves an ideological, egoic purpose. Debate is about winning, not about actually understanding the other perspective. If you observe yourself very carefully as you're debating, you will feel this. Your very desire to have a debate is already the problem. A debate has nothing to do with discovering truth. The truth is never uncovered in a debate. All debate does is drive people deeper into their webs of belief, creating distraction from doing the inner work. There is no need to convince anyone of your version of nonduality. Whatever your favorite method of nonduality is, just pursue it. Preaching it would be an ego-trap. What I do is a form of teaching. I teach because that is my purpose. I generally do not debate. Sometimes I "rant", but even that is tongue-in-cheek and mostly done for entertainment purposes. If I do a rant, I usually understand the other perspective. I am not in ideological opposition to it. If your purpose is also to teach -- great! -- then do that without debating anyone. You are not teaching through debate, you're just making people ideological. Debate also quickly devolves into ad hominem attacks, name-calling, trolling, and simply creates a virulent toxic atmosphere. The level of consciousness of people who like to debate is usually so low that they aren't able to engage in true open dialogue. They don't care about understanding or fairness, they only care how to defend their position at any cost. Of course, that's exactly how ego functions. What better way for ego to maintain itself than to engage in a debate about how other people's spiritual paths are wrong? Notice that when you go to a spiritual retreat, ashram, or Zen monastery, the atmosphere is never one of: "Hey guys, let's debate these teachings and poke holes in everything. Wouldn't it be beneficial to debunk some of this stuff?" If you did that, you would get kicked out. Not because the teacher is afraid that you will somehow dethrone him or undermine the truth of his teaching, but because you're behaving unconsciously and infecting others with that unconsciousness, defeating the entire purpose of that gathering. If you make your approach one of quietly seeking to understand every perspective, you will come out 100x stronger than if you make your approach one of loudly undermining all perspectives you disagree with. To be clear: engaging in thoughtful, constructive, open dialogue is NOT debate. And it is allowed here.

Seems to work well for many people. I've personally never done a Goenka-style retreat.

No, strong intention is very necessary. Don't make the mistake of burning your ship before you cross the ocean. Spiritual desire is great thing. Not all desire is egoic. If that was the case, we'd all be screwed.

One thing that might help you guys is to consider the possiblity that not everyone has the same brain type as you. Some people are naturally more intuitive than rational. They tend to be drawn to more mystical ways. If you're a highly rational and pragmatic person, well, that's just one way. Other people might be wired very different from you. Which means they literally access a different realm of experience than you. You may never have seen a demon, and maybe never will, but someone else might have. And so there is a huge disconnect. Don't expect people to translate all of their understandings and experiences into your rationalist paradigm. That would be a rather lazy attitude. Accept the responsiblity for understanding rather than putting the burden of "proof" on others. No one owes you understanding. It's your job to grapple with the mysteries of reality.

@Rimbaud Of course that isn't complete enlightenment or mastery. As I keep on telling people, but people keep refusing to listen. This here is kensho, or a first glimpse.

@Neo I have in the past covered the issue of losing motivation after stopping moralization. Deeper sources of motivation must be found. Of course ego has a lot of unhealthy motivations that need to be purified. That's a big chunk of this work.

You're failing to apply Vipassana to your thought process, and so are getting lost in metaphysical monkey-mind. After a bit of Vipassana your monkey-mind has moved up a notch from mundane monkey-mind to metaphysical monkey-mind. This is progress, but you still got a long way to go. A little insight is a dangerous thing Also, it's natural and good to contemplate your own death (as long as you aren't becoming suicidal). If you're like most people, you've avoided it for too long. And now all the sudden the dam has broken open. That's fine. Go through that process of hashing it out. You'll come out much stronger afterward. There can be no peace without contemplating death. The "depression" is just the ego's death-throes. Observe it with mindfulness and equanimity as best you can. And have compassion for yourself. Treat yourself with kindness and love.

If those questions could be answered for you, spiritual practice wouldn't exist. Time to roll up them sleeves and put some sweat on your brow

@Afonso You underestimate reality by infinity. It's only the biggest mistake possible to make. Oh well. No biggy

@ZeN The problem with possiblities is that that too is a distinction. And it assumes time. But time doesn't exist. So everything collapses into a sort of undifferentiated singularity. You gotta wonder, what would limit which possiblities get realized? And how could that limit itself be enforced? By another limit? And that one? And that one? And that one? And that one? Anything the mind comes up with is, by definition a limit. Anything that exists is a limit. That's WHAT existence or thing-ness IS: limit. And what limits how many limits there are? Nothing OMG! is exactly right!

It's the one thing that cannot be spoken. When you realize that every limit must have another limit to justify it, you will realize that reality is the sum total of EVERYTHING and NOTHING. Reality is that which has no container or limit. It's a lot weirder than "everything is possible." EVERYTHING and NOTHING are, simultaneously! Imagine an infinite-sized hard drive with an infinite number of infinite partions. And none of it exists! Fuuuuuuuuuckkkkkkkk! Mind. Blown. Now you can really appreciate why Islam forbids images of Allah, and why Zen masters keep silent. It would be a great injustice. How can something limited represent the absolutely unlimited?

Yeah... the crazy thing is that 20mg is 1000x less significant than 30mg. So what did you learn?

@Empty No one can help you there. This is the whole point of this process, so sit with that confusion of not-knowing. So get used to it. There is nothing for the mind to latch onto. So it spins its wheels. You just gotta experience that emptiness long enough to realize that that's you!

Chop wood, eat Cheetos

@Travis Truth doesn't matter.

Just want to caution anyone interested in pursuing spiritual powers: you can go down that road, but remember your priorities. Enlightenment and spiritual purification should be your top goals. Careful not to distract yourself too much.

No, makyo is makyo. An enlightenment insight is an enlightenment insight. And it comes in many facets and depths. You're not studying this topic nearly deeply enough. You've just skimmed the surface. If spirituality was as simple as you think it is, mystical traditions wouldn't be as diverse and complex as they are. This is just basic common sense. If you bother to do the research, you will start to see that your conceptual understanding of spirituality is riddled with holes and doesn't account for the facts we see on the ground. Feel free to do it your way. Let's see which one of us develops the deepest understanding and embodiment. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.

@Babybat Religion? No That is not at all what I advocated.

@Babybat When you feel like that monkey on the stick, then you'll be enlightened. You ain't there yet.

It also includes those who confuse their first enlightenment as the end of the road. And those who behave like cocky fools after enlightenment, thinking they've figured everything out. And those who use enlightenment to bash duality, not realizing that nonduality includes duality. One's behaviors speaks louder than one's enlightenments.

@Babybat Answer the following questions honesty: Did a major shift in awareness occur? Are you absolutely clear now of what you are? Are you the physical human body you've always thought you were? Do you feel infinite, without boundaries or location? Do you actually understand, or are you in a temporary meditative high? If you answered: "YES! YES! NO! YES! I UNDERSTAND!" then there's a pretty good chance you're enlightened. Otherwise, no. Sounds like you still aren't clear WHAT you are.

I don't think you guys appreciate the degree of depth of insight possible. However amazing you might think your first enlightenment is, I'd bet good money that it can go 1000x deeper. Consider, your current position is one of assuming you know better than a master with 40 years experience who has innate, near-superhuman spiritual capacities compared to you, and 20,000-40,000 hours of practice in contemplation. You will never know how deep you didn't go. And no one will ever be able to tell you. Is that a chance you wanna take? To do what instead? Eat Cheetos while watching TV?