Leo Gura

You're doing great. I'm just adding the next layer to it. Like an extra credit assignment.

Slippery is my middle name

@Thought Art That gives me an idea for a cereal brand for Christians. All the bits are either G, O, or D. That's a billion dollar idea right here. Christians will eat it up. Pay Jordan Peterson to be the mascot. You can make so much money trolling Christians.

I'm not Australian but I can meet a kangaroo.

We were fascist rats all along! Ta-daaaa! See first line of Leo's bible.

Their rewiring ability is less than I hoped. The manual effort of meditation forces rewiring better. But it takes 100s of consecutive hours. An hour of meditation is not going to rewire anything. You gotta really stress the brain like torture. So rewiring has this nasty cost which no one wants to pay. Every tool has its costs and tradeoffs. There's not an ideal tool.

There is some truth to that. But still, language capacity should not be associated with ego. Do you really want to claim that all spiritual masters never transcended ego just because they can speak a language? Not a good standard to set. Sure, of course such states of consciousness are possible. But that doesn't undermine the language-rich states. I'm not specifically speaking of Puporing. Just making a broader point. Of course both are true. And more complexity beyond that. It's certainly easy to mix ego, self-deception, and genuine mystical experiences of Christ together into an elaborate fantasy. That's mostly what I would say advanced Christians are doing. But there is this extra weirdness of Consciousness where if you start buy into your fantasy deeply enough it starts to become reality. That's why stuff like faith works. In the purely Infinite state God can't really even comprehend itself because it's too formless, because comprehension requires some degree of form. But the mistake here is to then say that comprehension is somehow not needed or inferior and that formless is the only goal.

Don't get hung up on English specifically. My point is not limited to English. It also applies to God communicating to you through spiral shapes, Aztec faces, space rats, geometric orbits, dancing jesters, flashing colors, emotions, or anything else. Those are all mediums for Intelligence to create self-understanding. My point is to appreciate how the finite medium enables self-understanding and not to attempt to reduce it down. So when a Christian sees Jesus in his pancake, there's something profound happening there beyond the naive literalist account of it.

That's an overly-broad notion of ego. A mind knowing English should not be called ego. Because ego can be lost but English will still remain operative. I suggest being more precise in your application of the ego label. What precisely is and is not ego? << something to contemplate Not a meaningful difference. Both are happening and both are important. But even if you're talking to yourself, explaining the world to yourself, making sense of the world to yourself, that's no different than a conversation with God. Intelligence needs a medium to do its work. Thoughts are a medium for Intelligence to create self-understanding. My point is actually very profound and important: be careful not to fall into the trap of reductionism, reducing down Consciousness to some formless abstraction. Intelligence/God needs mediums to operate through, and this should not be reduced or dismissed. Intelligence through the medium of Chinese or rat awakening is equally valid and important. The limitations of the medium should not be reduced to delusions or inferiority. It takes insane intelligence to receive a message through a limited medium but not attribute the limits of the medium to the communication. You receive the message and you acknowledge, this medium was limited, and there's nothing wrong with that, that's part of the genius and beauty of God. The limitation of the medium itself needs to be integrated into your understanding of Reality. The medium is not just a limitation, it's also equally an affordance. This is a higher intelligence than just dismissing every form as being limited.

Oh, you are definitely an evil entity

There is no irony. Psychedelics are still the king of consciousness. The only issue is that you can't be on them all the time -- which is not news.

But your insights and understanding of God still comes to you in English. Even when you think, "Oh my God!" on your DMT peak, that's God communicating to you in English. Not necessarily. It could just be a medium of communication. Sound needs a medium to reach your ears.

Have you had rat awakening? Maybe rat awakening is tops

God will use English to communicate insights to you not because English is some special God-language but because that's the only way into your limited mind.

It's not necessarily ego. It can be a kind of mystical experience. You can have a mystical experience of anything. You can have a profound, life-change mystical experience of a rat. It is unreal? No. It is a delusion? No. It's just one manifestion of God. If all love are rats, God will communicate to you through rats. God will construct a rat paradise for you, where you can swim through an ocean of rats until your heart is full.

Obviously moar! Why would we do this work for 10 seconds of pleasure?

It's pretty hard to drop humanness. Much easier to drop Christianity.

You are correct that in the end things hinge on one's values, and there is no objectively correct set of values. My values are not objectively best, nor would I ever claim that. However, one's choice of values matters a lot in terms of where you'll end up. Actualized.org is about a certain set of values which are designed to take one to very high places. If you disagree with the values you can find other teaching with others priorities. But, your understanding of God will suffer for it. If you don't care about understanding God, then fair enough. There is nothing I can say to make you care. And yes, there are tradeoffs. Your social life will take a hit. Your career may take a hit. Your family may take a hit. Those are some of the costs, and most people will not want to make those tradeoffs. But, then they lose the right to speak about God because they know not what they say. If you select your family over Truth, then you lose the right to speak about Truth because your ideas about it will be corrupt. Any value prioritzed over truth will lead to corruption. This must be the case and people like Jordan do not understand this. It is not true that placing beauty or love over truth will lead to the same place. It will not. It must end in corruption. Not as hard as you make it sound. I suggest something deeper is at play. They never even understood the import of pure understanding. They are lost, but it is their right to be lost. No, they aren't. They are doing much less profound work. But you are right that that's not wrong per se. They just don't know what they are missing. Yes, philosophers can have smaller aims than God and there is utility to those smaller aims. For example, Vlad Vexler is a great political philosopher but totally clueless about God. Is he wrong? Not really. But also, he cannot even imagine what he's missing. I would never criticize him about his lack of understanding of God because he doesn't pretend to know. Jordan Hall presents Christianity is a valid path towards God. This is where I must come in to say that that is an advanced self-deception. The reason I exist is to tell people what they're missing, because they don't even know. If a Christian knew how much he was missing, he would drop Christianity immediately. But the mind is so closed that it will never know. You sorta just have to trust me that something huge is being missed. But of course you cannot know whether I'm right or wrong. In the end, no matter which teaching you follow, you have to trust that it will lead you somewhere higher than other teachings. There's no way around this problem. Christainity makes certain claims. I make alternative claims. Who is more right? Only you can figure that out.

I listened at 33:30 and no such thing was said. But even granting he said it, Jordan does not understand God. He has a nice theoretical abstraction it, which is precisely the danger I am pointing out. Just because he can speak about God being ineffable does not in any way mean he is conscious of what God is. And also, notice BTW, how Jordan Hall will now ally himself with the likes of Jordan Peterson and the right-wing thanks to his new Christian identity, showing exactly why mistakes at this level will also spill over into politics. Wilber doesn't understand that the Dao is ineffable and can't be formalized? Come on. Anyone in the Integral community can parrot such cliched profoundness. I'm unsure exactly what Wilber is conscious of, but it seems more than Jordan Hall. But I wouldn't say Wilber is fully conscious of God either. He's conscious of Nothingness which is not the same thing as I'm pointing to. Wilber is not a sacred cow here. He's just a great philosopher relative to Western philosophers, and guys like Jordan and Daniel owe a lot of their knowing to Wilber and the Integral community. They are like Wilber's children. Wilber was smart enough not to get seduced into converting to Christianity and then promoting it across the web. So what does that tell you? Nice try but no. There is no crisis for me here. These people did not understand God, with the exception of Hegel. Their level of understanding of reality is tiny. No! Zizek has no clue what God is. This is intellectual masturbation which is designed to obscure lack of understanding and substance. Zizek is a perfect example of philosophy turned into bullshit. The issue is not that I don't understand Zizek. I do not fully understand his confused mental ejaculations. The issue is that he would not understand me. See, if I fail to understand Zizek, virtually nothing is lost. But if he fails to understand me, Infinity is lost. That's the difference.

Cause Europe is going Green.

Crucial point.

That is not how podcasts work.

Rogan will not heavily edit a podcast, nor would I want that. That only feeds conspiracy theories.

I will after I finish my next retreat.

Dude, it doesn't just "happen". It has to be forced. The mind has to be whipped into submission. It will not go willingly. Torture your mind for 200hrs and it will start to rewire and change. Irrelevant. Meditation presents its own kinds of truths. Do it to enhance your perception of truth. Insight is good but there's more to this than insight.