Logic vs Emotion in a Debate: Trump Felony Charges, "Systemic Racism," and Gun Rights

[Elliott]

13 minutes ago, MightyMind said:

@Jannes

Well considering his daughters journal (inappropriate shower time), to the actual film of which those above photos were taken, and to the reports from people talking about his in appropriate conduct around their wives, he sounds like a horny Bill Clinton

If a new england catholic grandpa kissing his grandkids makes you think about sex, you might be a pedophile. Grown men even kiss in that culture, heterosexual.

Edited December 1, 2025 by Elliott

[carterfelder]

"Systemic," the magical buzzword!

 

Edited 5 hours ago by carterfelder

[Elliott]

 

 

 

-DEA stationing in poor urban neighborhoods, but turn a blind eye to college campuses where drug use and sales are in the courtyard like selling lemonade

-longer incarceration times for black people for the same crime

-public school funding

-public infrastructure funding

-running highways through black neighborhoods

-neighborhood zoning, allowing industrial in black neighborhoods

-putting housing projects in black neighborhoods

 

and all of these things have hopefully obvious knock-on effects, i.e. "systemic"

Edited 5 hours ago by Elliott

[carterfelder]

Grok:

1. **DEA in urban neighborhoods vs. college campuses**: Enforcement targets visible, high-crime open-air drug markets in poor areas, not discreet use on campuses. Disparities stem from socioeconomic factors and crime patterns, not race; college students (often wealthier) face less policing due to private settings and resources for diversion programs.

2. **Longer incarceration for Black people same crime**: Studies show raw disparities, but when controlling for offense severity, criminal history, and other factors, gaps narrow significantly or vanish. Remaining differences often tie to poverty, not systemic racial bias in current sentencing guidelines.

3. **Public school funding**: Funded largely by local property taxes, so poorer districts (often minority-heavy due to history) get less. This is class-based, not racially targeted policy; efforts like state aid aim to equalize, though imperfectly.

4. **Public infrastructure funding**: Allocated by need, politics, and budgets, not race. Urban decay affects poor areas regardless of demographics; federal formulas consider population and poverty, leading to correlations but not causation by racism.

5. **Highways through Black neighborhoods**: 1950s-60s decisions often chose cheapest land with least political resistance, displacing low-income areas (disproportionately minority). Economic and urban planning choices, not explicit racism; acknowledged harms but not ongoing systemic intent.

6. **Zoning allowing industrial in Black neighborhoods**: Zoning follows historical land use and economic patterns; industrial sites predate or coincide with demographic shifts. Reforms address environmental justice, but issues tie to legacy poverty, not current racial targeting.

7. **Housing projects in Black neighborhoods**: Placed where poverty and need concentrate, often minority areas due to past segregation. Intended as aid, but poor design perpetuated issues; not racially motivated placement but socioeconomic.

**Critical thinking note**: Disparities exist and have historical roots in racism, but current systems are often class-driven with race as a correlate, not direct cause. "Systemic" implies ongoing intentional bias, which evidence debates; focusing on poverty alleviation addresses knock-on effects without assuming racism as sole driver.

Sources

DEA Drug Enforcement Disparities (Urban vs. College Campuses)

- U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration. (2020, January 16). *DEA releases strategic planning guide to prevent drug use among college students*. https://www.dea.gov/press-releases/2020/01/16/dea-releases-strategic-planning-guide-prevent-drug-use-among-college
- U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration. (2024, January 1). *Prevention with purpose: A strategic planning guide for preventing drug misuse among college students*. https://www.campusdrugprevention.gov/sites/default/files/2025-03/DEA-CollegeDrugPrev-010324_web_v5 (Revised 3-12-25).pdf
- Schulenberg, J. E., Johnston, L. D., O'Malley, P. M., Bachman, J. G., Miech, R. A., & Patrick, M. E. (2017). *Monitoring the future national survey results on drug use, 1975–2016: Volume II, college students and adults ages 19–55*. Institute for Social Research, The University of Michigan. (Referenced in PMC article on substance use among college students)
- Arria, A. M., & McLellan, A. T. (2019). Evolution of concept, but not action, in addiction treatment. *Substance Use & Misuse, 47*(8-9), 1041-1048. (Context from PMC on college substance use disparities)

Racial Sentencing Disparities (Controlling for Factors)

- United States Sentencing Commission. (2023, November 14). *2023 demographic differences in federal sentencing*. https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/2023-demographic-differences-federal-sentencing
- Starr, S. B., & Rehavi, M. M. (2014). Racial disparity in federal criminal sentences. *Journal of Political Economy, 122*(6), 1320-1354. https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2413&context=facarticles
- Nellis, A. (2023, December 7). *One in five: Racial disparity in imprisonment—causes and remedies*. The Sentencing Project. https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/one-in-five-racial-disparity-in-imprisonment-causes-and-remedies
- Mitchell, O. (2005). A meta-analysis of race and sentencing research: Explaining the inconsistencies. *Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 21*, 439-466.
- Spohn, C. (2000). Thirty years of sentencing reform: The quest for a racially neutral sentencing process. *Criminal Justice, 3*, 427-501.

Public School Funding Inequality (Causes in US)

- Baker, B. D., Farrie, D., Johnson, M., Luhm, T., & Sciarra, D. G. (2024, December 12). *Making the grade 2024: Education funding disparities persist as some states prioritize tax cuts and privatization*. Education Law Center. https://edlawcenter.org/making-the-grade-2024-education-funding-disparities-persist-as-some-states-prioritize-tax-cuts-and-privatization
- Baker, B. D., & Green, P. C. (2025, April 8). *How money matters: Education funding and student outcomes*. Learning Policy Institute. https://learningpolicyinstitute.org/product/how-money-matters-factsheet
- Darling-Hammond, L. (2000). Inequality in teaching and schooling: How opportunity is rationed to students of color in America. In *The right thing to do, the smart thing to do: Enhancing diversity in health professions* (pp. 208-233). National Academies Press. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK223640
- Jackson, C. K., Johnson, R. C., & Persico, C. (2016). The effects of school spending on educational and economic outcomes: Evidence from school finance reforms. *Quarterly Journal of Economics, 131*(1), 157-218. (Context from various funding studies)

Public Infrastructure Funding (Racial Disparities)

- Bullard, R. D., Mohai, P., Saha, R., & Wright, B. (2007). *Toxic wastes and race at twenty: 1987-2007*. United Church of Christ Justice and Witness Ministries. (Referenced in disparities discussions)
- Avila, E. (2021, April 23). *How infrastructure has historically promoted inequality*. PBS NewsHour. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/how-infrastructure-has-historically-promoted-inequality
- Bullard, R. D. (2000). *Dumping in Dixie: Race, class, and environmental quality* (3rd ed.). Westview Press. (On infrastructure and equity)
- Mohai, P., Pellow, D., & Roberts, J. T. (2009). Environmental justice. *Annual Review of Environment and Resources, 34*, 405-430.

Highways Through Black Neighborhoods (History)

- Mohl, R. A. (2004). Stop the road: Freeway revolts in American cities. *Journal of Urban History, 30*(5), 674-706.
- Rose, M. H., & Mohl, R. A. (2012). *Interstate: Highway politics and policy since 1939* (3rd ed.). University of Tennessee Press.
- Karas, D. (2015). Highway to inequity: The disparate impact of the interstate highway system on poor and minority communities in American cities. *New Visions for Public Affairs, 7*, 9-21. https://www.ce.washington.edu/files/pdfs/about/Highway-to-inequity.pdf
- Brinkman, J., & Lin, J. (2023). Highways and segregation. *Journal of Urban Economics, 136*, Article 103562. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0094119023000438

Zoning Allowing Industrial in Black Neighborhoods

- Silver, C. (1997). The racial origins of zoning in American cities. In M. Thomas & J. Ritzdorf (Eds.), *Urban planning and the African American community: In the shadows* (pp. 23-42). Sage Publications. http://www.newhumanityinstitute.org/pdf-articles/Christopher-Silver-Racial-Origins-of-Zoning.pdf
- Whittemore, A. H. (2017). Racial and class bias in zoning: Rezonings involving heavy commercial and industrial land use in Durham (NC), 1945–2014. *Journal of the American Planning Association, 83*(3), 235-248. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01944363.2017.1320949
- Rabin, Y. (1989). Expulsive zoning: The inequitable legacy of Euclid. In C. M. Haar & J. S. Kayden (Eds.), *Zoning and the American dream: Promises still to keep* (pp. 101-121). Planners Press.
- Maantay, J. (2002). Zoning law, health, and environmental justice: What's the connection? *Journal of Law, Medicine & Ethics, 30*(4), 572-593.

Public Housing Projects Placement in Black Neighborhoods (History)

- Rothstein, R. (2017). *The color of law: A forgotten history of how our government segregated America*. Liveright Publishing.
- Popkin, S. J., Cunningham, M. K., & Burt, M. (2005). Public housing transformation and the hard-to-house. *Housing Policy Debate, 16*(1), 1-24. https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/public-housing-and-legacy-segregation
- Vale, L. J. (2000). *From the puritans to the projects: Public housing and public neighbors*. Harvard University Press.
- Hirsch, A. R. (1983). *Making the second ghetto: Race and housing in Chicago 1940-1960*. Cambridge University Press.

[Elliott]

34 minutes ago, carterfelder said:

 

Disparities exist and have historical roots in racism, but current systems are often class-driven with race as a correlate, not direct cause. "Systemic" implies ongoing intentional bias, which evidence debates; focusing on poverty alleviation addresses knock-on effects without assuming racism as sole driver.

 

No, that's the opposite of what the student in your video said, systemic racism does not mean explicit or intentioned racism.

 

Go to a college campus party, drugs are everywhere, smoking bongs on the porch on a busy road. Google "kansas city stop" black neighborhoods are not targeted because a guy says "black neighborhood target them" it's because of people like you that don't even understand your racial biases are afraid of black people, this is what 'elevates' the crime rate by blacks, they're targeted more by police, subconciously because they're black.

Look at the opioid epidemic in appalachia even JD vance harps about, where's the DEA there?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Elliott

[carterfelder]

That's your emotions speaking, bro. Leave the cult.

[Elliott]

38 minutes ago, carterfelder said:

That's your emotions speaking, bro. Leave the cult.

a black guy getting arrested 60 times at work is my emotions speaking? 

Edited 3 hours ago by Elliott

[Elliott]

blacks are 15% the population. show me 1 innocent white person arrested 3 times at work.

 

Grok

Criminal Justice System Black Americans are incarcerated at roughly 5 times the rate of white Americans. Black men receive sentences about 19% longer than white men for similar federal crimes (accounting for factors like criminal history). Black youth are over 4 times more likely to be detained in juvenile facilities. These disparities are linked to differences in policing, arrests, charging decisions, and sentencing practices.

Policing and Surveillance Black drivers are stopped more frequently than white drivers during daylight (when race is visible), with disparities decreasing at night. Black people are 3 times more likely to be killed by police than white people, according to various analyses.

Housing and Homeownership Historical redlining (government-backed denial of loans/mortgages in Black neighborhoods from the 1930s–1960s) created segregated communities with lower property values. Today, Black homeownership is around 46% vs. 76% for whites, and homes in majority-Black neighborhoods are often valued tens of thousands less than comparable homes in white areas. This limits wealth-building through home equity.

Employment and Wealth Resumes with "Black-sounding" names receive about 50% fewer callbacks than identical ones with "white-sounding" names. Black workers earn roughly 71 cents for every dollar white workers earn. Black unemployment is typically double that of white unemployment. These gaps persist even among college graduates in some fields.

Education Schools in predominantly Black and Latino areas often receive less funding (due to reliance on local property taxes in segregated neighborhoods). Black K-12 students are nearly 4 times more likely to receive out-of-school suspensions than white students. Black preschoolers face suspension at 3.6 times the rate of white preschoolers.

Healthcare Black Americans have shorter life expectancies (e.g., Black men live about 4 years less than white men on average). Black women are 3 times more likely to die from pregnancy-related causes. Disparities appear in treatment for heart disease, cancer, and other conditions, compounded by poorer access to quality care in segregated areas.

Environmental Injustice Communities of color are more likely to be located near pollution sources (e.g., highways, refineries), leading to higher rates of respiratory illness and other health issues.

These examples reflect persistent racial gaps in outcomes, which many researchers attribute to the cumulative effects of historical and ongoing institutional practices rather than solely individual actions. Disparities often intersect with class and geography.

Edited 3 hours ago by Elliott

[carterfelder]

Grok:

Critiquing the Claim: The Sampson Case as "Evidence" of Systemic Racism

While the Earl Sampson incident undeniably reveals troubling police misconduct, racial profiling, and overreach in Miami Gardens, labeling it as straightforward "evidence" of *systemic racism* in U.S. policing warrants scrutiny. Systemic racism implies a pervasive, intentional, or structurally embedded bias across the entire criminal justice apparatus, rooted in historical discrimination and perpetuated through policies that disproportionately harm racial minorities regardless of other factors. Critics of this framing argue that such claims often overgeneralize isolated or localized issues, ignore contextual drivers like crime rates and departmental incentives, and fail to account for how the system self-corrects. Below, I break down key criticisms, substantiated by data and analyses, to show why this single case doesn't conclusively prove a nationwide systemic issue.

1. It's an Isolated Departmental Failure, Not Nationwide Proof
The Sampson case stemmed from a specific "Zero-Tolerance Zone Trespassing Program" in Miami Gardens, a small Florida suburb, implemented poorly under one police chief (Matthew Boyd, who resigned amid the scandal). While whistleblowers alleged directives to target young Black males, this was tied to a local quota system aimed at boosting arrest numbers for performance metrics, not a coordinated national racist agenda. Broader studies of U.S. policing find no consistent evidence of systemic anti-Black bias in outcomes like shootings when controlling for factors such as violent encounters; instead, disparities often correlate with suspect behavior and crime hotspots, not race alone. Extrapolating from one flawed department to indict the entire system risks confirmation bias, cherry-picking anecdotes while ignoring reforms in thousands of other agencies. For instance, the U.S. has over 18,000 police departments, many with increasing diversity that correlates with reduced misconduct. If systemic racism were the core driver, we'd expect uniform patterns nationwide, but variations (e.g., lower disparities in diverse departments) suggest local policy failures.

2. High Crime Context Explains Aggressive Tactics, Not Just Racism
Miami Gardens was (and remains) a high-crime area, with violent crime rates far exceeding national averages during 2008–2013. Data shows murders per 100,000 residents hovered around 20–24 (vs. U.S. average ~5), assaults over 600 (vs. ~250 nationally), and robberies ~300–500 (vs. ~100). The city's population is ~76% Black and lower-income, meaning proactive policing in "high-crime" zones naturally disproportionately affects Black residents due to residential segregation and socioeconomic correlations with crime, not inherent racial animus. Neighborhoods with more Black residents often have higher poverty and crime rates, leading to more police presence without proving bias. The zero-tolerance approach was ostensibly crime-fighting, not race-based, though its execution was abusive. Critics argue that framing this as systemic racism overlooks how policing responds to victimization patterns—Black communities suffer higher violent crime victimization, so aggressive tactics, while flawed, aim to address that. Disparities in stops or arrests often vanish when adjusting for crime exposure, suggesting behavior and location, not race, drive outcomes.

3. Driven by Quotas and Incentives, Not Explicit Racism
Internal pressures like alleged quotas for stops and arrests explain much of the overreach, diluting claims of racism as the primary motivator. Whistleblower Officer Jose Rosado claimed orders to "target young Black males" but tied this to a numbers-driven culture, not overt hatred. Such systems incentivize volume over validity, leading to harassment regardless of race, though demographics amplify impacts on Black individuals. Broader critiques of systemic racism claims note that psychological studies alleging subconscious bias (e.g., implicit bias tests) have been debunked for poor reliability and failure to predict real-world behavior. If quotas were the root, the issue is managerial incompetence or corruption, not a racist "system." Moreover, the department's chief was Black, complicating simple narratives of White-on-Black oppression.

4. The System Self-Corrected, Countering "Systemic" Entrenchment
A hallmark of systemic racism is resistance to change, yet here the system responded: media exposure led to a federal lawsuit settled in 2015, Chief Boyd's resignation, and a state investigation. Whistleblowers were protected (though Rosado's firing was litigated), and the case influenced broader discussions on oversight. This accountability—via lawsuits, resignations, and reforms—shows the system isn't irredeemably biased but capable of addressing abuses. Critics argue that true systemic racism wouldn't allow such corrections; instead, historical efforts like civil rights laws and diversity initiatives have reduced overt discrimination. Disparities persist due to socioeconomic factors (e.g., poverty correlating with crime), not unchangeable racism.

5. Broader Methodological Flaws in Systemic Racism Claims
Using Sampson as "evidence" exemplifies wider issues in racism allegations: focusing on offender disparities while ignoring victims. Black Americans are overrepresented as both offenders and victims in violent crimes, so policing that reduces crime benefits those communities. Statistical analyses claiming bias often suffer from "collider bias," where restricting data to police encounters distorts results by not accounting for why encounters happen (e.g., higher crime calls in certain areas). Comprehensive reviews find no systemic bias in sentencing or arrests when controlling for priors and behavior. Theories like Critical Race Theory, which underpin many systemic claims, are criticized for ignoring causation—linking modern issues to slavery without proving direct links, while downplaying post-1960s reforms.

In sum, while the Sampson case highlights real injustices warranting reform (e.g., better oversight, body cameras, quota bans), it doesn't substantiate systemic racism across U.S. policing. Alternative explanations—high crime, quotas, segregation—better fit the facts without invoking an all-encompassing bias. Overemphasizing racism can erode trust in reforms that work, like community policing, and distract from addressing root causes like poverty. For balanced views, consider sources from across the spectrum, as partisan ones often amplify or minimize based on ideology.

[Elliott]

Grok

 

Key Statistics on Exonerations by Race

Overall: Black people make up about 13.6% of the U.S. population but account for ~53% of all exonerations (overturned wrongful convictions) since 1989. White people make up ~59% of the population but only ~33% of exonerations (as of recent Registry data, covering over 3,200 individual cases).

This means innocent Black Americans are ~7 times more likely to be wrongly convicted of serious crimes than innocent white Americans, based on exoneration patterns.

[Elliott]

Grok

Black Americans use drugs at rates similar to or lower than Whites (e.g., 1.1x for recent use, but Whites higher lifetime), yet they are ~2x as likely to be arrested and 5–13x as likely to be incarcerated for drug offenses.

[Elliott]

'Systemic Racism' does not mean it's impossible for blacks to succeed, it means there are obstacles for many black people, just because they are black. There's obstacles for everyone, yes, that doesn't absolve us from looking at any of them for anyone. Take the obstacles for people in coal country, we should address that for those white people, it would benefit the entire country. Instead, you want to pay Musk to start an epstein island on mars.

Edited 3 hours ago by Elliott

[carterfelder]

Thanks, I'm learning something today.

Grok:

The statistics on exoneration rates by race, as discussed, reveal stark disparities: Black Americans, who comprise about 13.6% of the population, account for roughly 53% of exonerations since 1989, suggesting they are around seven times more likely to be wrongfully convicted of serious crimes than white Americans. These patterns are well-documented and hold up under scrutiny, but whether they constitute definitive "evidence of systemic racism" depends on how one defines the term and interprets the causes. Systemic racism generally refers to embedded policies, practices, or structures within institutions (like the criminal justice system) that produce racially unequal outcomes, often without requiring overt individual prejudice. Many experts and organizations, such as the Innocence Project and the National Registry of Exonerations, view these disparities as clear indicators of such systemic issues, pointing to factors like official misconduct, implicit biases in policing and prosecutions, and racial profiling that amplify wrongful convictions for Black defendants. However, some scholars and analyses argue that these patterns aren't necessarily proof of *current* systemic racism, or at least not solely attributable to it. Below, I'll outline the key critical arguments against interpreting the data this way, drawing on available research for a balanced view.

1. Disparities May Reflect Underlying Crime Rates and Suspect Pools, Not Bias
   - A common counterargument is that higher exoneration rates for Black Americans stem from higher baseline involvement in certain crimes, which increases the pool of potential wrongful convictions without implying racism in the system itself. For instance, homicide rates in Black communities are about eight times higher than in white communities, often due to socioeconomic factors like poverty and segregation. This means more Black suspects are investigated for serious crimes like murder (which account for a large share of exonerations), leading to more opportunities for errors like mistaken identifications or flawed evidence.
   - The National Registry of Exonerations' own report acknowledges this "base rate" effect but argues it doesn't fully explain the gaps—after adjusting for conviction rates (e.g., Black defendants are 40% of murder convictions but 55% of murder exonerations), Black convicts are still about 80% more likely to be innocent than others. Critics, however, contend that incomplete data on unreported or unsolved crimes makes it hard to rule out behavioral differences as the primary driver, rather than systemic bias.

2. Own-Race Bias in Eyewitness Identifications and Evidence-Based Suspicion
   - Many wrongful convictions (about 69% of DNA-based exonerations) involve mistaken eyewitness identifications, and research shows an "own-race bias" where people are better at identifying individuals of their own race. Since most crimes are intra-racial (e.g., Black victims are more likely to be harmed by Black perpetrators due to residential segregation), and white witnesses may struggle more with cross-racial IDs, this could contribute to higher error rates for Black defendants without invoking racism.
   - Additionally, "evidence-based suspicion" differences may play a role: Black suspects might face weaker initial evidence thresholds for arrest or prosecution in high-crime areas, leading to more convictions (and thus exonerations) based on circumstantial or flawed proof. This is seen as a procedural issue tied to crime patterns, not inherent racial animus.

3. Weak or Inconclusive Evidence for Widespread Bias in Adjudication
   - A 2023 meta-analysis of over 100 studies on racial disparities in criminal adjudication (charging, sentencing, etc.) found that effect sizes for Black-white differences are very small (r ≈ 0.054, akin to statistical noise) for most crimes, except drugs, where they're still minor. The authors argue that claims of "systemic racism" overstate the evidence, as higher-quality studies (with better controls for factors like criminal history) show even smaller or no disparities. They suggest researcher expectancy effects (e.g., citation bias favoring studies that find bias) may inflate perceptions of racism.
   - Similarly, some analyses point out that disparities in exonerations don't prove bias in convictions—they depend on post-conviction factors like access to DNA testing or legal resources, which might vary by race but aren't necessarily racist in design. For example, if advocacy groups prioritize cases with racial angles, it could skew exoneration stats.

4. Historical Legacies vs. Current Intent, and Declining Disparities
   - Critics argue that while past overt racism (e.g., Jim Crow-era policies) created lingering effects like poverty and segregation, attributing current disparities solely to "systemic racism" ignores ongoing reforms and lacks evidence of intentional bias today. Psychological research on implicit bias (e.g., subconscious racism) has been debunked in some cases as unreliable, and societal norms now strongly reject overt racism in institutions.
   - Recent trends show disparities may be decreasing: A 2025 study found that while Black exonerees historically waited longer for exoneration, for those convicted in recent years, white exonerees now face longer waits, suggesting reduced bias over time. This could indicate that systemic issues are being addressed through reforms like better forensic standards or body cameras.

Counterpoints and Why Many Still See It as Evidence
While these arguments provide reasons to question if the disparities are purely "systemic racism," they aren't universally accepted. The same Registry report highlights amplifying factors like official misconduct (e.g., hiding evidence), which occurs 50% more often in Black defendants' murder exonerations, and extreme disparities in drug cases (19 times higher for Black innocents), where racial profiling is well-evidenced. Meta-analyses critical of systemic racism claims have been challenged for overlooking cumulative effects across the justice pipeline (policing to sentencing) or for not addressing victim-offender dynamics. Ultimately, the data doesn't "prove" causation in isolation—disparities could stem from a mix of socioeconomic factors, historical inertia, and biases—but the scale and persistence align with systemic critiques for most researchers.