Carl-Richard

This is a good example of why green movements that don't integrate blue values get run into the ground very fast. This is a forum. It's not your mind. Be openminded, but the forum has a purpose, and it's being maintained by enforcing rules. If something goes directly against the interest of the forum, then don't expect to see it here.

I've posted this in another thread, but if you really want the epitome of low consciousness entertainment with a mix of all types of stages, try the Rajj Royale Podcast https://www.twitch.tv/rajjpatel. It's 6-8 guests from all walks of life, going at each other all at once. Basically, It's tier 1 fighting dialed up to 11. I like to watch it because you really get to see the different SD stages in action, but also because I hate myself . The comedic guests really save the show haha

What do you mean about that?

@Nak Khid You still have a limbic system that tries to avoid danger. Spiritual death is happening on a more subtle plane.

Are you actually dying right now in your experience though?

@Galyna Idk. I've had similar symptoms, but it all culminated with me feeling like I was going away and never comming back. Not a pleasant thing when you don't want it

Do you feel like you're dying?

I was paraphrasing way too much, but here is the clip where he is talking about that. He said he had that insight after a huge mushroom trip : 1:58:07 I think it's a yellow insight in the way that it recognizes a layer of relativism.

@tenta Hahaha. I do sometimes sympathize with feeling that he is just a loudmouth orange dude, but the way I see it, he doesn't hate Bernie, but rather he dislikes the Bernie-or-bust phenomena. However, he does have many concrete examples of green values: calls himself pro-feminism concerned with LGBTQ+ rights avoids ableist slurs and misgendering pro-UBI critical of American imperialism takes psychedelics in an open sexual relationship calls himself "extremely left-leaning" The reason I see some yellow in him is because of how he talks about everything from metaethics to politics with all kinds of different people (very openminded). He is also a moral anti-realist (ethical subjectivism), has said things like "we only value knowing the truth if it benefits our life", uses words like "framework" and "model" when describing different world-views. Things that keep him away from yellow would be his attachment to materialism, reductionism, atheism, and capitalism.

Funny after Leo's last video how people confuse entertaining closemindedness with openmindedness haha

Infinity cannot not exist.

@Roy It's true that people tend to get very excited about some models over others, but that should be expected really. For this forum it's SD and non-duality, for others it's gender theory, for others it's red-pill philosophy. We all have our favorites.

It's not a yellow podcast per se, but I still really recommend watching the Rajj Royale Podcast on Twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/rajjpatel) if you want to see the whole spiral in action (atleast tier 1). It's a very free-form debate, starting with around 6-8 guests. People get eliminated as time goes, and it tends to get very heated (which is just fun really). Often comedic guests and topics, but they also invite political guests: everything from liberals, conversatives, communists, alt-righters, gender-fluid people, transgender people etc.. The most yellow person you should expect to see on there would be Destiny, although you shouldn't really expect seeing anything above green there.

Just a little update: I'm finally able to sit reasonably relaxed for longer periods of time without second guessing if I'm dying or not. That took a month and a half of quitting meditation, pretending to exist in a physical world and just doing what normal people do.

I've been obsessed with enlightenment for quite a while now, but I've come to realize more and more that I'm actually not ready for it. The problem is though, the more I give up my interest in it, the more it keeps seeping into my experience, even when I've stopped meditating for 10 days. Are anybody else having the same problem? This is a youtube comment I made about 10 days ago on HealthyGamerGG's video "What Even is Meditation?": "Be careful with meditation. I've been meditating for 3 years everyday, and just now lately I've had to stop, because I'll be sitting in a lecture just listening to what is being said, and out of nowhere, it feels like time stops, I'm losing control of my actions and that I'm dying and never coming back. This has happened many times during meditation, and despite how beautiful and blissful it is, I always revolt in fear, because I'm not ready to leave my life behind, because that is what it feels like. But now it's happening with eyes open and totally outside my control, and the only thing that stops it from going completely off the rails is manually tensing up and throwing a little silent tantrum. Even when this makes me feel like I do regain a little sense of control, it's an illusion which is very easy to see through, and before you know it, you will keep sinking deeper into the deafening silence until you're trembling in sheer terror. I know, I know: this is what the people who are chasing enlightenment (which I used to do) are just dreaming about being able to experience, but don't be fooled: the price for liberation is your life. Transcending the mind is nothing short of losing your mind. But yeah, if you are able to let go, it will be the most worthwhile thing you can do in life. I hope I will reach that point at some point, but right now, I don't have the courage or trust to do it." I feel that the reason I don't feel like letting go is because I'm young and not developed as a person. It's primarily that I'm not economically independent yet and socially underdeveloped. I haven't built up trust or faith in myself, and I feel a desire to control, to survive. There are a few things I feel I want to fix in my life before giving it up, and yes, I know this is just a game I'm playing with myself, and I will just keep going to the next thing ("I just have to fix this first"), again and again and again, untill I just decide to stop (granted that you can't actively "choose" to stop, you know all that non-dual jazz...). I just wanted to hear if I'm not alone about this. Lately it's been getting harder to keep this "dying process" from happening, and I don't know if anybody has got any tips for me. Thanks

It's not so much that Spiral Dynamics is wrong or right. It's about how useful it is. If you find the model useful or if you don't find it useful, I don't see the problem either way.

@andyjohnsonman You would have to explain why that would be your suspicion. Being openminded just for the sake of being openminded isn't really what you should be aiming at.

@UnconsciousHuman I have read that tread and I'm already familiar with the concept of lines. You could say the reason for my questioning is that I don't see the reason for creating an additional model in a separate thread for this particular concept. Imo it's more fitting to be added as a line in the thread you linked.

@Consept No individual, group or movement is summarized by one SD stage. It's all a mixed bag. I would say SJWs are more red/blue than say hippies. It's OK to say that these values can be expressed through concepts like communication and intent, but I ultimately see no additional descriptive capability of this model. It's good to have nuances and different concepts, but it doesn't require excessive modeling.

@UnconsciousHuman The blue/red edge means that their movement isn't merely green. I'm just not convinced how you can distinguish the intention of communication from the expression of the values.

I'm assuming that you're modeling this description after what I call the SJW phenomena, which I believe to be a green movement with a radical blue/red edge. I would say that these people aren't just communicating using blue/red, but they ARE infact blue/red in many aspects, which is quite funny as it seems to contradict many of their green values (which what people like Steven Crowder and the red-pill community are capitalizing on). My problem can essentially be summed up like this: In pratice, how would you be able to distinguish the 'intention of communication' from the actual values? How do you know when someone is expressing themselves in a red fashion vs. when someone is merely showing their red values? The way I see it, communication is just one of the ways the values are expressed. If those values aren't present within the individual or group, the values wouldn't be expressed, and they would not be a part of the conversation.

I'll put it in another way: if you ask a SD stage orange person what they want to achieve in a conversation (their intention of communication), they will most often give you the description of the yellow stage in your model. Idk, I just feel that the intention of communication is a direct reflection of the values of the person anyway: what you want to achieve in a conversation is very often congruent with what you want to achieve in life, instead it's just put into language and shared with others. Still, I like your idea

I agree that you could use SD the way you're intending to do, but will a stage orange person not have the intention to use logic, reason, and rationality when communicating?

I'm pretty sure that is orange. Depending on the definition, you can have a personal agenda even at yellow, only it's less obvious.

@GodDesireOnlyLove Most often, people don't want help unless they're asking you for it.