Forestluv

@tsuki Thank you for your insights on spirituality and cultures. Last week I had a long conversation with a religious history scholar. Some of his comments echoed yours. About how religion / spirituality was shaped within the context of culture and served the culture. Sometimes I view religions / spirituality from the lens of my own culture at this time in history. It can be mind expanding when I really think about what the culture was like during previous time periods and how culture and religion/spirituality interacted with each other and shaped each other. You offered a few points I had not considered and that helps expand my perspective.

I'm hoping you can tell me more about your perspective here. I have a background that had been dominated by analysis - earlier in my life I was hyper-analytical and hyper-logical. Many people would describe this as "Masculine". Over the last several years, I've spent a lot of time working on non-intellectual modes of being. I'm interested in learning from a perspective that calls out Masculine intellect from a feminine perspective. As well, my sense on the forum is that it can get off balance toward more masculine analysis and intellects at the expense of more "feminine" such as creativity, emotion, empathy and intuition. I feel that these perspectives are really important for balance on the forum. When you say "balance things out to fully grasp truth on a deep level" what do you mean by "balance things out"? Are you referring to modes of being more associated with feminine? Such as emotional and empathetic modes? As well, can you explain what you mean by using this balance to help others that are struggling? Again, would this mean relating to them on emotional and empathetic levels? I encounter this quite often as a science teacher and it is an area I want to improve in. Some of my student evaluations feel similar to your comment. Sometimes I get the sense I have forgotten how hard it is to learn stuff as a student and the struggles that go along with it. This can limit my ability to connect with students on emotional and empathetic levels. I'm curious if this is the type of thing you are sensing here.

@How to be wise Those are some nice insights. I would just add that I've found that perceptions and beliefs are not limited to thoughts. With enough practice, the mind can go extended periods without thoughts. My mind has gone about 10min or so without a thought. It is an amazing experience of beingness. And I've learned there are still beliefs and perceptions without thoughts that shape my reality.

Thank you for this response. I can come across as being abrasive at times. It is something I am trying to develop better skills with. Yes, I think we agree a lot. I think your view has a lot of value in many situations. As well, I am not an expert in this area. For all I know, your advice is perfect in this situation. Who knows, maybe her reaction was due to fears and insecurities and it is something she can work out by taking a look at herself and working with her bf. That is not my impression tho. And I apologize for the comment suggesting computer jockeying. I can relate to people that are trying to break free of abusive relationships and the pain and suffering endured by staying in abusive relationships. As well, I used to over-conceptualize a lot and I would talk a lot about things I lacked direct experience in. This aspect of me may have been triggered and I may have written what I wish someone told me years ago. I can see how that comment wasn't entirely fair and I would rephrase it if I could.

I read your responses and I fully understand what you are saying. To me, it sounds like there is disconnect going on at the human level - in particular the empathetic mode of being. Empathetic understanding comes from direct experience. I developed this understanding after going through abusive relationships and working with dozens of women that had gone through abusive relationships. Before this experience, I lacked this empathetic understanding. I am not talking about compassion. I am talking about a high level of empathetic understanding that is gained through direct experience. I also lack empathetic understanding in some areas, for example I have a deficiency in empathetic understanding of going through the insanity of post-partum disorder. I can imagine how difficult it is and have compassion, yet I lack empathetic understanding since I do not have direct experience of going through the insanity of post-partum. I understand you gave the best advice you could. I understand you have good intentions. I understand that it is based on life experience. What I am saying is I don't think it is the best advice for the current situation. I think it has a lot of value in a different situation. Part of personal awareness is understanding one's own direct experience and how that may affect their perspective. This is an understanding and awareness that comes from maturity. There is only one way to get direct experience and that is through direct experience. It cannot be figured out or bought. It often takes a looong time and can be extremely uncomfortable. For example, I would have given advice similar to yours when I was younger. I then got direct experience being in an abusive relationship and I worked for years volunteering with abused women in a clinic. This experience changed my perspective. Based on both direct experience with abusive relationships at both the personal and social level, I believe your advice is not the best and I explained why. There are power and emotional dynamics in abusive relationships that run deep. Furthermore, giving advice to abused women should not be taken lightly. This is serious business with serious consequences. Those that have been abused and have worked with abuse victims understand this. After all this experience, I can say that for abusive relationships your advice is not good for a woman trapped in an abusive relationship trying to leave - yet unable to leave. The advice can actually be damaging. I am not saying you are doing this intentionally. I understand you have good intentions. Developing deeper understanding requires direct experience. There are things I have direct experience with and have worked through that I am comfortable with. There are also areas in which I do not have direct experience and I would not offer advice. If I did, I would understand the limits of my direct experience and I would be open to those with more direct experience. When I volunteered to assist abuse women I went into it with a sense of openness and humility. This helped me learn a great deal. If I went in with a defensive attitude that my direct experience was already sufficient and nobody better suggest I have a deficiency - then I would have been closed off to learning. Similarly, there are many areas in which I have little direct experience. For example, I do not have direct experience as being a parent. If there was a parent with serious problems with their child asking for help, I may offer some suggestions with good intentions. Yet if people that are actually parents with years of direct experience as parents came in and said my advice is not the best because I am not considering a few things, I would be open to their direct experience. Direct experience is King. There is no substitute. I would understand that my view is limited due to a lack in direct experience. As well, I do not have direct experience of being a woman, being a minority, being homosexual or transgender. I've never been pregnant, gone though a divorce or gone through custody battles. I have never lived in a war-torn country. I have never experienced military bombings and the devastation it causes on communities and families. I have no direct experience in the military. I have never been through that training and I have never shot someone. I have never experienced a comrade being shot. There are times in which I can try to imagine this situations and offer my input and support with good intentions, yet I am very aware of my limitations of direct experience and I am cautious how I speak about these issues. I value the direct experience of others in these areas and I am open to learning from them. Over and over on the board there are members with direct experience that I lack offering their experience. I totally welcome that. There are other areas I have extensive knowledge and direct experience. Part of developing emotional, empathetic and social intelligence is being aware of this. One of the biggest blocks I see with personal growth and consciousness work are people assuming they have understanding without direct experience. They speak out thinking they understand, yet are unaware of their lack of experience and the value of that experience. Even in this area, I am well aware there are people that have experience that I lack. In particular, the perspective coming from a woman. Being a man in an abusive relationship has different dynamics that being a woman in an abusive relationship. I understand this and realize I have limitations to my direct experience. And the comment about how it's easier to conceptualize in comfort than undergo actual direct experience also comes from direct experience. I accumulated a lot of knowledge and concepts about abuse, racism, PTSD, panic disorders, anxiety disorders etc. There is nothing wrong with that, yet I had no idea how limited my understanding was until I started experiencing it myself and working directly with those that suffer from these things. It is an entirely different area of understanding that does not come through conceptualization. Yet that does not mean conceptualization is bad, it just means it is limited.

I understand that. Imagine being in a trap and being abused. Then someone comes along and says "find resolve and take ownership of your life". That sounds like a perspective from someone who has not been in an abusive trap. And a perspective from someone who has not worked with abused survivors. Getting out of an abusive trap is extremely difficult. All the energy needs to go into removing oneself from the trap and getting support. Any talk like "well, both people in the relationship are at fault", "he is revealing some of your own shortcomings", "maybe it's best for her to have the resolve to stay in the relationship and make it work" all make it harder to break free of the abusive relationship. This is a view lacking empathy and direct experience. I have gone through this dynamic myself and I have volunteered in a counseling unit with abused women. It is easy to be on the outside sitting at a computer and go into conceptual mode and type out advice that sounds good. It is entirely different to have actually suffered the abuse and have actually spent time working with women in abused relationships. It sounds like you don't have that experience. In my experience, that leads to a very limited (yet well-intentioned) perspective.

@tsuki I volunteered many years with abused women. One thing I learned is to take an abused woman at her word. She said her boyfriend is toxic and he is abusive. Everyone in her life is saying he is abusive and she should block him. The suggestion that it isn't "real" abuse or both-side-ism is a common dynamic that can keep an abused woman in an abusive relationship. I know the "both sides" position can seem open-minded and neutral, yet there comes a time to believe someone when they say they are being abused and to be supportive to them. In this case, I would say questioning whether she is actually being abused and suggesting she need to show evidence and justify that the abuse is real is inappropriate.

I think that type of introspective work is great after one has removed themself from an abusive relationship. The OP said she has been trying to break it off with a toxic partner and is unable to do so. She tried to break up with him and found herself at his house last night waiting for him to come home. . . I think the most important thing to do right now by far is to set a strong breakup boundary and do not have contact under any circumstance. Block his phone number. Then reach out to friends and family for support,. Then go get help at psychological services at the college. The no contact is sooo important to get distance. The first week or two is incredibly difficult - after a week or two of no contact and there is some distance - then one may be able to start doing real introspective personal development and growing in a new direction. Toxic, abusive relationships are a major trap that can be extremely difficult to free oneself. The first stage is breaking free of that trap and getting distance from the trap. Then one can examine how the ended up in the trap and how they can grow so they don't get trapped again.

Yes, I understand that visceral reaction and have experienced it myself. The question becomes whether you want to expand your capacity to love. I've found that focusing on a horrendous events of murderers and rapists is a distraction from expanding one's capacity to love. It allows the ego to remain contracted within it's limited capacity for love. If you want to expand your capacity to love, it is much better to focus on borderline cases that are in the grey area for the personality. Each personality has a different judgement barometer.

That would be nice, yet egos enter and interfere. For example, we could design an approach that integrates mediation and psychedelics. How would that approach go over within the Zen community? How would that approach go over with the psychonaut community? I have over 20 years of experience with meditation and sanghas without the use of a single drug. I also have experience with about 100 psychedelic trips. I have a lot of experience with both and I can tell you from direct experience both are useful tools. As well, I have integrated Yoga practice. What I found is that when I mention psychedelics as a tool within a sangha or yoga group, there is enormous resistance. Extremely strong resistance about how psychedelics are delusional, a distraction, dangerous, addicted etc. On the flip side, if I am with a group of psychonauts and talk about the value of years of meditation and yoga practice, there is huge resistance. They say all that stuff takes too long and isn't necessary for awakening. They tell me the true enlightenment experiences come through psychedelic trips and all that mediation is a waste of time. I spent months with people in Peru totally immersed in Ayahuasca ceremonies. They had all these random insights, yet they were delusional in their own little world talking nonsensically about things like illusory time - all day long. . . . It was immature and ungrounded. They were wandering around doing 2-3 Ayahuasca ceremonies a week - some of them for years. I tried to tell them the value of integrating Ayahuasca experiences with meditation, journaling and yoga now and over the years. They looked at me like I was one of those "clueless meditators" and went back off into la-la land for hours rambling on and on about other dimensions. Similarly, I've spent time with life-long meditators and monks explaining the value of psychedelics as a tool when integrated with mediation. The response is the similar - that I am a misguided, drug-induced delusional being with good intentions. Each side is unwilling to let go of their own way and expand. Yet each sides has immense value and their synergy takes consciousness work to the next level. Those that use a hammer insist the hammer is best and are closed to other tools. Those that use a saw insist the saw is best and are closed to other tools. A being that is open to using all tools and develops those skills is on a different level. This being becomes a skilled carpenter.

@shubhankar At the personal level, this appears to be a pleasure vs. pain issue. You are still associating more pleasure with procrastination activities than productive activities. Once the scale is tipped so procrastination becomes more painful/less pleasurable than taking action, the personality will move toward taking action. None of the tools will work at the personal level until this balance is shifted. We could give you great tools, yet if your subconscious mind-body still associates less pain/more pleasure with procrastination it will continue to procrastinate. What helped me during a similar dynamic was to write out a list of all the pain/pleasure I currently associated with procrastination. I then made a list of all the pain/pleasure I currently associated with taking action. The key is to be honest. The conscious mind wants to think "I associate more pain with procrastination". That is a delusion. The procrastination list MUST be more powerful. Starting off, there must be less pain and more pleasure on the procrastination side, because the mind-body is procrastinating. If it is minor distractions and minor bad habits, I don't think what I describe below needs to be intense. Yet if it is deeply ingrained procrastination and major bad habits, then I think the below needs to be intense. Ime, anyway,. Once I made the lists and fully admitted and surrendered to the fact that I currently place more pleasure and less pain on the procrastination side - I tipped the scales. Now, I added pain to the procrastination side - I brainstormed and piled on tons of pain. All the things I was missing out on life. All the ways it was making me unhealthy. All the dreams I will never achieve. The key is to make it emotionally painful. Without engaging the emotional mode it will NOT work. The intellect is not enough. For example, I visualized my life in 20 years. I stood in the mirror and imagined myself 20 years older looking back at my current self. I imagined my life after 20 years of procrastination. My future self looked miserable. My future self looked so disappointed in me. "How could you have done this to me?". I did a variety of things like this to engage the emotional system. I made it so real I was filled with anger. I made it so real I was crying at times. This was an incredible source of motivation. On the flip side, I made a list of goals and things I was procrastinating about. Here, I piled on the pleasure. I brainstormed pleasure from taking action. The pleasure of having a good job, the pleasure of traveling, the pleasure of being in good shape and being able to go hiking etc. Here, I also did visualizations and meditations. Again, the key is to engage both the intellectual and emotional system. I became so charged up. And not just a rah-rah kind of way. I had to emotionally experience the pleasure and joy. This was sufficient to re-steer the ship into a different direction. There was enough juice to motivate my mind-body for about a month. Yet I needed to recharge my system with the above exercises. As well, I needed to come up with a detailed plan and measurable milestones. For example, one of my goals was to run a full marathon. I divided that up into do-able measurable components. Week 1, I run a little bit twice a week. I gradually increased the distance and frequency. I entered a 10K race and completed it. I celebrated this victory. Then came a half marathon. Then celebration. Then the full marathon and celebration. Along the way I added in stuff. I made new friends and joined a running community. The key for the next stage is to form the daily habit. The next stage is to become that person. At first, I was a out-of-shape bozo that could only run around the block once. I felt like an impostor. I was embarrassed to tell people I was training for a marathon. I was a faker. Yet a funny thing happened along the way. I became a marathon runner. I've run over 50 marathons. I became the marathon guy. People around me asked if I could help them train for their first marathon. I trained over 10 people for their first marathon and helped them with both the physical and mental aspects of marathon training. At first, crossing the finishing line was exhilarating. Yet then, watching a friend I helped train cross their first finish line was the exhilaration. Seeing their face at the finish was amazing. Seeing their joy and the joy with their family was amazing. This became new juice for me. As well, coupled it with other things I wanted to do. I would run for three hours and listen to recordings of my college class lectures. Or I would listen to talks by spiritual people like Adyashanti. I got a two-for-one. I also coupled marathons with my love and goals of travel. I traveled around the U.S. and foreign countries running marathons. Amazing experiences. And it all started when I made that list of pain/pleasure and tipped the scales. A lot more needed to be done after that, but that list was the catalyst. And here I am 20 years later, looking at my younger self in the mirror. And my younger self is not looking at me with disappointment and for that I am grateful to my younger self for taking the action he did.

@tsuki Based on my experience with Zen and buddhist sanghas. . . . Most nonmeditators have not left room 214 of the hotel. Most long-term meditators have stuck their head out of room 214 and realize there is a hallway and other rooms. Most monks have left room 214 explored other rooms on the second floor. Yet they haven't realized there is an elevator and other floors. There is nothing wrong with room 214 or other rooms on the second floor. The are amazing things to explore. Yet there are also other floors and rooms.

@SQAAD Where do you draw the line between who deserves love and who does not? Can you give examples of people that are borderline for deserving love? What specific objective criteria should we use to judge whether someone deserves to be loved or not? My neighboor leaves trash on his lawn and is rude to me, Yet he seems to be a decent father to his kids. I think he is on the borderline wether he deserves love or not.

I would take the advice that everyone is giving you: block him.

Takin’ it to the next level. ?

That gopher was totally enlightened.

@thesmileyone You’ve done thousands of hours of mediation and are yearning to go deeper. What’s holding you back from trying a psychedelic once or twice? And I would not use DMT the first time. The strong visuals can be distracting and make it harder to integrate imo. As well, I would be weary of psychonauts in their own little world. I think those that are well balanced and also do meditation, yoga, journaling, retreats etc. are more mature.

It’s good to know I’m not the only one to have experienced that ☺️

@thesmileyone So cool to see you digging deeper and exploring. Great stuff ??

Love this. The flute is both bamboo and the space between bamboo ♥️

That is why I used the term “can” rather than “will”. I think a person needs to be open and willing with a certain level of maturity for it to be effective. Similarly, one needs a certain level of maturity to use power tools.

They can also save a teacher years of teaching. A six hour trip can teach a person far more in five hours than I could in five years.

ALL CAPS is against forum guidelines.

@mandyjw Well said. I've had similar observations and experience with drugs. If a person is immature or unstable, I think the risk of drugs being counter-productive is really high. I've seen some exceptions, yet in general drugs seem to be counter-productive and can cause destabalization, dependency, escapism, chasing experiences, delusions of awakening etc. I also agree that they can be useful for mental conditions like PTSD. Yet I would add that the studies showing positive results included participants that had already gone through years of therapy. And the experience was in a safe environment with a trusted health-care provider and a loved one present. After the experience, there was further counseling to help integrate the lessons. This is a very different setting than someone ordering some psychedelics online and going it alone. I also agree that when a person reaches a certain baseline level of consciousness the dynamic changes. It then becomes a powerful consciousness tool that can save a person years of practice and work. Even then, I think it takes skill to use them wisely. I think one of the keys is being able to integrate the drug-induced lessons into a sober mindset and sober living. I think that takes maturity and skill. It seems that people with a solid foundation of years of spiritual study and practice like mediation, yoga, journaling, spiritual retreats etc. have a much better chance of using the tool wisely.

In a non-dual sense, God is all aspects and God is no aspects. Love vs Hate is a duality. In a nondual sense, Love = Hate Because at the dualistic human level, humans like to feel love, not hate. How many humans would attend a spiritual retreat with the theme "Love is Hate"? Not many. Humans are attracted to the squeezy stuff like serenity, bliss, love etc.