Forestluv

@FreeThoughtFlow You are unaware how difficult it is to teach to a diverse audience. I’ve never met a teacher who taught to a diverse audience and got 100% positive student evaluations. It would actually be a red flag imo.

I see your point and see value in it. I’d rather not get into a discussion and analysis of raw data sets, statistical quantifications and the conclusions drawn. Based on my experience as a scientist, I’d estimate that would take several hours of work into the weeds of T-tests, Anova, chi square, P-values, levels of confidence etc. Also, discussions about assigning values of “good” and “bad” science and misinformation are very nuanced. Much of science is along continuums, it is not “bad” or “good”. There can be mixtures of “bad” and “good” and different degrees of “bad” and “good”. And there is of course multiple statistical tools that yield different models and interpretations. I can take the same data set and give you a significant result or insignificant result depending on the tool I use. I would not draw your own conclusions regarding the statistical interpretations based on that video. I think these are very interesting conversations and I’ve spent many hours engaged in it. Yet it’s not what I was pointing to and it is a distraction. I’m willing to call the “Dunning-Kruger” effect a model without a consensus regarding statistical significance at this point. This would also be true of 99% of the models discussed in the forum. There is a distinction between a model and statistical significance to suppirt a model. Just because a model lacks statistical significance foes not mean thete is statistical significance to regute that model. Consider Wilbur’s “Pre/Trans” model. I think it’s a useful model - yet there has been no experimentation on it and there is zero statistical support. Why should we hold Dunning-Krugers model to a higher standard than Wilbur’s model? For the purpose of this discussion and the intention of helping the OP, I am fine referring to it as “being unaware of one’s own deficiencies and over-estimating their competencies” as you suggested.

Why not enter a situation with an open mind and create a reccomendation that is best for the situation that arises? With the above attitude, you would miss a lot of situations in which psychedelics would be valuable as part of their path. When I advise people, I don’t think “based on my experience, this path is superior for people” before they even enter my office. I allow them to enter my office and I have an open mind. My intention is to help them find the best path for themself. That may be similiar to my path or different than my path. I listen to them and based on what they say, I may share pieces of my knowledge and experience that may help them along their own path. I don’t try to steer them along a path I think would be best for them.

@okulele Most Turquoise teachers are speaking to green level audiences. They meet their students where they are at and can appear lower. There are a wide variety of Yellow level conversations. Mooji and Einstein would converse differently at yellow, with some overlap

That is all fine and dandy. That’s not what I’m saying at all. Retreating into “there is no me” will prevent you from seeing this. Throughout this thread, FoxFoxFox has been pointing at someone’s somewhere. That is a somewhere when “you” do that. With first experience with nowhere it’s really easy to embrace it, shift into it and reject somewhere. There is retreat to nowhere. This is similiar to embracing nonduality and rejecting duality. Nowhere and somewhere are inter-related. Nondualuty and duality are inter-related. The two are integrated as a whole. You are both nowhere and somewhere, yet trying to embrace nowhere and reject somewhere. There are not opposites. Not duality or nonduality. Not “me” or “not me”. Not absolute or relative. These are all two sides of the same coin. And yes, this message comes from a somewhere. If you focus on that you will miss the essence of the message.

By focusing on my somewhere, you cannot see your somewhere. I have to be somewhere to show you this. The key is to not focus on my somewhere. Everytime someone grounds and points, they are a somewhere. It doesn’t matter what it is. We could be talking about sports or Nonduality. As soon as one makes a point, they are a somewhere. Even me right now trying to point to nowhere is a somewhere. There is nothing wrong with being a somewhere. The problem arises when one loses awareness of their somewhere. Throughout this thread you are somewhere evertime you make a point, as am I. Yet you keep saying you are nowhere when you are somewhere. You are pointing at someone’s somewhere not recognizing your somewhere while doing so.

You keep saying “X is Y” and unaware that “X is X”. You are in relative dimension that you don’t recognize because it appears different from your previous relative dimension that you evolved out of. You are somewhere, yet think you are nowhere.

I was referring to the effect qualitatively, not quantitatively.

@Paul92 To me, it seems like you are going from one opposite to the other. For exampe: “If duality isn’t true, then nonduality must be true” ”If ‘me’ isn’t true, then ‘not me’ must be true” Sometimes a mind becomes so attached to one side that it’s helpful to knock it off that side by showing the other side. If the mind becomes aware of the other side, the mind often becomes attached to the other side. Imagine someone thinks a coin is heads their whole life. What’s the best way to show them the coin isn’t heads? Show them the tails side. But then the person can get attached to the tails side and say “Heads is false! Tails is true!”. But then Heads apoears. So heads must be true and tails false. But then Tails appears again. . , Every time one side appears, the other side disappears. This can cause a lot of confusion and turmoil if a person is not aware they are both the same coin. When heads appears, tails still exists and vice-versa. Similarly, when “me” appears “no me” still exists and vice-versa. “Me” can love and experience life, while “no me” also exists and is present.

You asked in an earlier thread for me to give you another pointer, yet again you don’t seem open to receiving it.

This is my earlier point. From the null void, you are doing the same thing she is. You are pointing yourself to it.

I’ve dine all three. For me, the dosages would be a bit different

Sometimes when I contemplate meaning opposites arise and then become integrated. For me, love and sorrow are two sides of the same coin. At the deepest levels I’ve gone, love and sorrow become one and I can no longer tell the difference. It’s so beautiful.

Thank you. I've been reflecting on what I wrote and considering all the feedback I have received. I think having my own experience with the video may have limited my vision. Today in one of my classes, we discussed traits of a good psychologist / counselor. The type of connection I had with my niece was really helpful to her. Yet that connection is only one piece of the puzzle. Will that connection we had help her with the practical aspect of getting through school, interacting with friends and her psychological issues? Perhaps a bit. Yet she also needs the trained psychologists, her parents and her service dog. Similarly, regarding the video - I think I was too critical of Abraham. She is offering a piece of the puzzle as well - one that I am not skilled with. My sense has changed more toward us all being on the same team. That we are all contributing our own gifts.

I think it depends on your definition of "awakening". For me, psychedelics opened a whole new expansive arena and the concept of "awakening" expanded as well. I imagine being in a cave my whole life without contact to the outside world. I'm surviving on cave fish. Then way day I find an opening and walk out to the outside world. The cave life is just never the same. Would you call this an awakening I keep with me everyday? Or would you call it an insight I don't keep with me everyday? It's kind of an odd question to me. I would lean toward saying it was an awakening I keep with me everyday because once I was exposed to the outside world, there is never going back. I could never go back into the cave and return to the old mindset. I can't unsee the Truth.

There is a form of identification. It's really hard to see within the identification. Outside of it, it becomes obvious. I tried to point to it verbally and was rebuked. I then tried to go through an intuitive line and was rebuked. What I am saying is going through a filter and getting distorted. That is why I am saying I've become counter-productive. I have good intentions, yet the chance of me causing a negative impact at this point is higher than having a positive impact. Thus, I should stop.

I was pointing to something else. It's a very narrow window to get through. I pulled out a Turquoise wand, yet the dynamics aren't quite right - so I need to put it away now.

I thought there was an opening. Yet, I still get the sense I am counter-productive if I keep pressing. I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.

A part of you is asking, so perhaps you are able to receive. . . Are you as comfortable with the above statements as you were your original statements? Again, if you don't want to look at this, I will stop. I backed away and I think you asked for more, so you might be ready for this realization. Yet I will gladly stop. It's a really hard realization and I would be very resistant if someone was doing it to me.

Attachments gets much more subtle. And there are less people around that are able to reveal those advanced subtle attachments. I've only just begun. . .

I sense that it will be counter-productive if I push harder. I appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.

Ooohhh. I've never heard of that one. I'm going to check it out. Thanks!

Yes. That is the danger. . . It is an advanced trap that can be difficult to free oneself. It's a different game in Turquoise.

I disagree. I don't think there is such thing as experience. (I am poking at subtle clinging. I think you may be able to recognize it. You may find it helpful. If not just tell me to stop and I will).

Do you agree with the above statements?