Forestluv

The Goldilock bears. From the wiki description: ”What was originally a frightening oral tale became a cozy family story with only a hint of menace.” Not too far off from psychedelics ?

@Shroomdoctor Just a thought. . . Sometimes personal development work is uncomfortable and kinda sucks. Yet it’s not an ongoing suffer-fest. If I’m caught in a personal development rut in which everyday has “an issue of the day” and people around me keep asking “what’s wrong? Are you ok?” - it’s an indicator I need to mix it up. A few fun/stimulating ways I’ve done personal development: — Taking a solo trip — Training for a marathon — Joining a meditation community — Hiking to every waterfall within a 2hr drive of my house. You can be creative and create a personal development atmosphere that is fun and excites you.

@Leo Gura I think this may be a good example of the dynamics you describe. Below is a clip from a senate confirmation hearing of a Raytheon defense contractor lobbyist for the position of secretary of defense. Elizabeth Warren described how the current structure allows for potential conflicts of interest since a loophole would allow the secretary to personally engage with Raytheon while secretary of defense. Warren asks if the potential secretary would be willing to distance himself from Raytheon defense contracting for a period of time related to his position as a defense secretary (as other secretaries have been contractually required to do). To me, the basic essence came across as impersonal principles of ethics and conflict of interest. Yet the republicans in the hearing were strongly reactionary and personalized it - saying that this nominee is a man of integrity and that Warren is rude by calling him dishonest. The chairman even apologized for the terrible treatment he received from Warren. To me, this seems like a collective ego at play and this type of personification can be a distraction from the underlying issue that we need structural frameworks to discourage conflict of interest. Erosion of that framework allows for corruption and dysfunctional government.

@Angelo John Gage @kieranperez I think it’s a tricky subject with various degrees. In one sense there can be a sudden awakening of “hey, I’m creating my own reality and I don’t need to beat myself up anymore”. A deep clear awakening can release a lot. In another sense, there can be deeply ingrained programming and even after realizing the irrational nature of the thoughts, the thought impulses still arise. Realizing and then letting go of these intrusive thoughts can be frustrating and tiresome. After a while, they lesson for me . . Yet my father’s critical voice lived rent-free in my head for many years in spite of all the eviction notices I sent. . .

What do each of those adorable bears represent ? ?

@student I like the image of a camera. A camera can capture an aspect if IS-ness. Yet have you ever noticed that a picture can’t quite capture it all? . . I was in Sedona two weeks ago basking in the essence, energetics, vibrations of all around me. I wanted to capture this essence with a few photos, so I could re-experience it later. Yet the pictures couldn’t capture it all. They are pretty pictures, yet they can’t capture the totality of actual aliveness Now. It’s similar with the mystical nature of Now. Sometimes there is a mystical appearance that seems extraordinary and my mind wants to “capture” it. Well, I can’t bust out my iPhone and take a picture of a mystical experience. So my mind tries to capture it by creating a thought story about it. “I was mediating in nature and then I dissolved and went into this lucid state and there was no me, just awareness of another magical dimension. There is nothing “wrong” with that, just as there is nothing wrong with taking a picture. Yet just as the picture cannot capture the full essence of the atmosphere, a thought story of an experience cannot capture the full essence of the direct experience occurring Now. Sometimes it’s nice to take pictures and create thought stories of experience. Other times, it’s nice to leave my iPhone and my thinking mind in the car and take a hike just being the infinite totality of Now.

Beautiful. I have such a poor sense of direction. Those breadcrumbs come in handy ? It seems many humans would prefer using GPS to get to a destination. . .

@Angelo John Gage Wow, such a great video on the psychological dynamics of self abuse. I think this has a lot of practical value and is a very common dynamic in society. I like how you described it as self punishment. I think it can be intensified in people surrounded with highly judgemental/critical/punishing people in their lives. Yet as you indicate, we need to recognize it, take responsibility and develop beyond it. At one point in my life, I realized “If I was as abusive to others as I am to myself, I would be locked up in jail right now”. Another insight: it is really hard to be kind to others when one is abusive to themself. Sometimes when I see people being mean to others, I can feel that they are mean to themself. From a nondual perspective, there is no difference between being mean to oneself and being mean to another.

@Shaun If you create a rule, someone will likely break it. . .

That’s a good point. “Reveal” is probably a better description than “induce”. For example, they can reveal a previous sense of prior conditioning/identification of being a separate self and being trapped. It seems like prior conditioning and patterns are a major variable in what manifests. Perhaps similar to dreams. Most of my dreams have some connection to my waking life. And it doesn’t seem like there is an “internal” world of the person tripping and an “external” world the person is tripping in. All inter-related. There are now so many variables floating around in my head I can’t describe it coherently ? Ultimately, they are human constructed thought/image stories arising in my mind.

@Nahm We humans love to create and tell human stories ?

Fundamentally/energetically is relative. How a particular mind-body fundamentally/energetically resonates with psychedelics is relative and involves many variables. For some mind-bodies in certain settings it can induce expansive liberation, in other mind-bodies it can induce trauma. @Shadowraix Same with me. Psychedelics resonated well with me and were an amazing growth tool. I assumed that’s just how it was. I now realize not everyone resonates like me. There are many forms of resonance and many variables. And it’s not because “they weren’t ready”, “not conscious enough” or “unwilling to surrender”. They just didn’t resonate with psyches like I did. . . I’m now more cautious how I discuss psyches with newbies. What I find equally fascinating is that the same mind-body can resonate differently at different times. I’ve had many different resonances with psyches ranging from pure live and bliss to a horror show. . . For a couple years, cannabis raised my conscious level allowing increased resonance and opening up dimensions in nature and yoga. Then the resonance suddenly changed and it started inducing contraction into personality, anxiety and paranoia. Life is so bizarre at times.

@pluto It’s relative to the person and involves many variables. I’ve met people who cured their neurosis and spiritually expanded with psychedelics. And yesterday, I took a walk in a park with a woman who ended up in a psychiatric hospital for an extended period after a bunch of trips. . .

Consider that enlightenment could be transcendent of a personality, such that the person does not become enlightened. Rather, the person appears within enlightenment. Could a human-mind body realize it is within enlightenment? Sure. After this realization, could impulses of anxiety, fear, frustration etc. arise within the mind body? Yep. Since the realization is trans-personal, it is often related to a dissolution of the personality, since awareness of the illusory/imaginative/dreamlike nature of the personality is revealed. There is often an energetic shift away from self-seeking. Yet impulses that humans like to categorize as “bad” can still arise in human mind-body (such as frustration and insecurity). The mind-body is highly conditioned and within a society that may reinforce and encourage that conditioning. Even after the awareness is revealed the mind-body still has potential for development at the personal level. Yet the “essence” of enlightenment can be a “game-changer” in which much of the divisive personality dynamics dissolve. Imo, this is the biggest misconception for a seeker. That the person gets a thing called “enlightenment”. They see others who they think have gotten this enlightenment thing and think it should look a certain way (peaceful, blissful etc.). Self-seeking for an imaginary thing called enlightenment can provide a person motivation, yet it’s also kinda a wild goose chase. Kinda like searching for your glasses and then realizing they were on your face the whole time. Yet most humans have a need for the search as this keeps awareness contracted within a personality and keeps the ego relevant and in the game. Enlightenment isn’t something an illusory person gets. The personality is a human construct composed of appearances. There is no stable thing called a person that catches enlightenment. Rather, there are personality appearances within enlightenment. I’ve experienced expansive consciousness beyond human form that was inexplicably beautiful. I’ve also experienced contracted consciousness of inexplicable anxiety and terror in which the mind-body desired to kill itself to make it stop. Enlightenment was equally present in both situations.

@QandC Who is observing the ego and creating a story about it?

@TrynaBeTurquoise I’ve had psychedelic-induced conscious states that I call “trans-human” because that is how it seems upon “return” to the human mind-body. The human mind-body has certain limits, yet it has much more potential than we are aware of. I think the question of how the different effects of psychedelics relate to the human psyche is an interesting one from a human perspective. I’ve done about a dozen different forms of psychedelics and know the different essences of spirits you describe. I don’t think it is “actual” by how the human mind perceives and contextualizes “actuality”. I think it is an “actuality” beyond human contextualization at this time of human evolution. Perhaps in 200 years, humans will have explored these realms and have a better understanding. The question of whether access to these dimensions are psychedelic-dependent is one have explored and contemplated and my sense is “no”, that they are not psychedelic-dependent - but it sure as heck helps. Ime, when the ego/person/human contextualization machine is consistently dissolved to such a degree that it isn’t appearing while sober, there is a greater chance of “accessing” these dimensions. I did 5-Meo 24 days straight, with only a few days off. One thing I noticed was that as consciousness contracted back into human form, there was a human contextualization into a human “experience”. This tendency of contextualization began to dissolve and after about 10 days disappeared and there was what I now contextualize as “trans-human” consciousness though out the day (even sober). In other words, the “god-consciousness” stuck. The last “regular” thoughts I had from a human person perspective was sitting down on my meditation cushion to vape as I did each day and there was a realization that “I” didn’t know if I had vaped already or not. The duality between “sober” and “5-Meo” perception and contextualization broke down. Concepts like “breakthrough” dissolved as there was no distinction between “pre” and “post” breakthrough. It was permanent “breakthrough”. Multi-dimensional phenomena occurred throughout the day, even when I was sober. For weeks straight. Yet I’m not sure how how to contextualize this relative to the human mind-body. From a human perspective, I would say there is a relationship with a particular mind-body and resonance. The experiences that Leo has recently described that seem extraordinary or unbelievable to many, seem completely normal and ordinary to me. In part because forms of extraordinary and unbelievable would manifest throughout the day for me. Yet these manifestations have been different than what others with a high baseline conscious level describe, so perhaps there are different “flavors” that human mind-bodies resonate with. This would relate to the relative nature of reality and I don’t think all beings would need to “access” the same dimensions to show “actual existence”. This idea is within a contracted human contextualization. For example, the physical land and culture we refer to as India “actually exists” and any of us can venture there. Yet that criteria of “actual existence” is within a human perceptual framework and there is a more expansive “actual existence” beyond these human constructed parameters. Should we assume a finite human mind can define “actual existence”? How will humans define “actual existence” in 200 years? With that said, psychedelics definitely alter my resonance dynamics. I don’t need much, yet there is also desire in my mind-body to do it “naturally”. I’ve been taking a break from psychedelics and working on developing abilities without psyches. At times it’s been difficult to be off “the juice” because my resonance level seems muted and I can’t just turn it on at will. At times, I feel like a wizard without my wand. Yet, I feel a desire to develop what has been revealed to me naturally, so I can access and fully embody it sober. . . I still drift into dimensions sober that I previously could only access with psychedelics. These appearances used to cause distress in the mind-body as it seemed like a “flashback” or I was losing my mind. Yet now, it seems pretty normal.The body no longer reacts as if it is an amazing occurrence. It’s more like being conscious of a lucid dream.

At the human level, this is a common question and has appeared in my mind many times. I think it boils down to the criteria you are using for the construct of “actual existence”.

This is an accurate general over-view of a neuroscience perspective. Yet I stress his points that we currently know very little. He describes our rudimentary understanding of a few components of a highly complex integrated system. Secondly, his point that un-coupling the dmn and inducing novel neural communication can be helpful for SOME individuals. It’s not as simple as “Hmmm, this neuroscientist says all I need to do is uncouple this thing called a dmn with some lsd and it will help my psychological issues”. Also, he described psychedelic effects of at the level of neural tissue. To expand this, I would add that psychedelics induce neural plasticity and neurite-genesis. This is the second major property of psychedelics and allows for “rewiring” of the brain. Yet from the perspective of the human, we can’t assume that this “rewiring” will always be “good”. It’s not as simple as taking some lsd, uncoupling the dmn, inducing neural growth and plasticity - and then presto! - the brain rewires itself into a form the human person is happy with.

Notice how there is an orientation of opposites here. Either “a” or the opposite of “a” must be true. As well, there is usage of “facts” to provide grounding for a universal truth. Facts that can be recontextualized. Again, I did not say that “race doesn’t exist”, yet you keep assuming you understand what I’m saying and interpret it with a pre-conceived filter. I am saying that from a relative perspective the statement “race does not exist” has truth to it at a genetic level. From another relative perspective, the statement “race does exist” also has truth to it at a genetic level. It’s as if I am saying “depending on perspective, there is truth that a coin is a head and there is truth that a coin is a tail”. Yet you are so fixated that the coin must be heads that you keep posting links showing the heads side of coins and ask me to prove that the heads side is actually tails. That is not what I am saying at all. I will briefly describe the “partial truth” that “race does not exist”. Yet I am NOT saying that the opposite statement that “race does exist” is false. It depends on context. What genetic criteria would you use to define a race? For example, which allelic variations of DNA sequences will you choose as criteria of who qualifies as “Chinese”, “Japanese”, “Black”, “White” etc. In more common terminology, what genes would you choose as criteria to determine race? (This is not technically accurate because humans share the same genes, variation comes different allelic sequences of those genes, as well as sequence variations in non-geneic chromosomal regions). ANY criteria you come up with will have inherent problems with it. There will be MANY different combinations of multiple genes. There will be issues in gray areas along continuums, necessity and sufficiency issues, where to draw threshold allelic frequency limits, relevancy of allelic variation if they don’t contribute to phenotype etc. At this level of analysis, it is highly complex. You are looking at this at an organismal/social level. “That dude obviously looks Chinese and that dude obviously looks Norwegian”. Yet if you look under the hood of the underlying genetics you will find it Is NOT that simple. It gets complicated and messy. This is a highly simplified example, yet may get the point across. Suppose 60% of humans within the geographic region we call China have a particular gene sequence and only 27% of humans in Norway have that gene sequence (At a conventional social level these two groups of people would be referred to as “Chinese” and “Norwegian” people). Is a 60% allelic frequency sufficient for “Chinese-ness”? What specific percentage in a population is necessary to call it a “Chinese” sequence? 50%, 70%, 90%? And what percentage difference is necessary to differentiate two different populations? And does this sequence have anything to do with what appears as differences to us perceptually? Does it need to? What if an individual lacks a gene sequence that is associated with a group of people, yet contains other sequences associated with that same group? No group of people will have the exact same gene sequences, because there are no groups of identical twin populations, so there will NOT be an objectively definitive set of gene sequences that define an entire group. Any group you assemble will have an immense amount of sequence variation WITHIN the group. MORE variation than your criteria to distinguish between groups (although one could make an argument of what are “relevant differences”). One can set up a reference group of sequences, yet there will be degrees to which individuals match that reference set and aspects that are arbitrary. And who decides what criteria is used to define genetic boundaries to construct categories called race? Upon closer inspection the genetic constructs of “Chinese-ness” vs “Japanese-ness” vs “Indian-ness” vs “Caucasian-ness” etc, breaks down. Just like ALL dualistic categories collapse under intense scrutiny. In this context, the statement “race does not exist” has truth from a genetics perspectives. Yet it does NOT mean that the opposite statement that “race exists” is absolutely false. It’s dependent on context. If someone was arguing that “race does not exist”, I could make an equally strong argument that race does exist. As well, I am not saying constructs of race lack value. You can send me scientific articles all day long about the genetic basis of race and I will not disagree with it. Yet I also understand the underlying problems that constructs of race based on genetics have.

This gets at the flexible nature of a yellow mind. What you are pointing at is that yellow does not have attachments to ideas and can “go with the flow” like the fluidity of a river. Yet, it’s not like one intentionally changes their mind to become more flexible. That suggests there is an owner that is giving up attachment for one idea for attachment to another idea. Yet, I think it can be a helpful exercise to transition. I don’t think trying to change my mind from an idea I hold as important to another idea would have worked well for me. I don’t think my ego would have fallen for it. What works better for me is getting into a mindset in which I’m curious about how idea and how/why people become attached to particular ideas. Why is idea “x” important to me and idea “y” important to her? What happened for me to believe “x” and her to believe “y”. If I had the same conditioning as her, would I also believe “y”? This helped me to let go of my own beliefs and really consider someone else’s beliefs and the underlying dynamics of why we believe what we do. Yet, I would also be selective with what I am engaging with. I wouldn’t recommend doing this on toxic websites. Rather, in areas in which ideas are floating around that can lead expansion. For example, years ago I blew off talk of so-called paranormal abilities as “woo woo” nonsense. Then, I became curious and started resonating with people that seemed spiritually mature talking about stuff like intuitive abilities. This open a whole new area of curiosity and exploration. I would also focus on the second part of your post. That is, to let go of attachment to thought stories because “they don’t matter much”. Rather than changing to another thought story to replace it, just allow whatever arises. Maybe awareness of bird chirps or a felling in the body may arise. Let it appear and disappear. Perhaps another thought story will arise. Allow it to appear and disappear. Maybe the two thought stories will merge and create a higher level thought story. Then maybe desire for food or drink may appear. . . After a while, that “person” that is attached and takes ownership of thought will begin to dissolve. There is an energetic shift away from the person to a transcendent energy that is super cool. . . . This is upper green transitioning into yellow. Yet you are in striking distance. A mind-body first becomes aware of it in others and a curiosity and energy toward it arises. One notices yellow in others before it is embodied and naturally arises within themself. It is much easier for one to be “pulled up” to yellow when they are with a yellow-centered person they resonate with.

In this area, the trickiness for me is observing egoic dynamics from a non-egoic space. When what we refer to as ego appears, an egoic dynamic often appears in my mind. This egoic dynamic can be very subtle and sneaky. It appeared within the thread in my mind. A sense that here is an “I” that is more developed and conscious than another person’s “I”. It’s much easier for me to be aware of this dynamic in nature because components of nature don’t have egos that mask an internal ego in my own mind-body. It’s very obvious when ego arises in nature, much more subtle within human interaction. It might be fun to have a “spiral wizardry” thread. The topics wouldn’t really matter, it’s more about the underlying communication dynamics. Sorta like toastmaster’s - the topic isn’t that important, it’s about learning the underlying skill set of public speaking.

Main things I notice: 1. A sense of attachment and identification to a particular view. I’ve gone through this dynamic sooo many times internally (including within this thread), that I can sense it quickly in a conversation. 2. A lack of curiosity. Yellow loves exploring ideas and integrating components of various views to form more holistic views. A yellow mind is like a curious kid at the creek exploring nature. Orange is not interested in expanding, rather is interested in debating and reinforcing a preconceived idea. 3. Relativism and contextualization is a key component of yellow. Orange sees their view as objectively true. They will often use terms like “logic, evidence, facts and proof” to get a sense of grounding of inherently groundless objectivism. 4. Reflection. Contraction for orange gives a sense of stability and comfort. Contraction to yellow is restrictive and uncomfortable. Notice how I became contracted within the thread in my effort to engage at Orange. When @Scholar pointed this out, there was a sense of contracted discomfort in my mind-body. Yet rather than an orange desire to reinforce the contraction, there was a desire to expand. Within my mind-body, reflective and expansive thoughts to expand arose. There was awareness of how personal components entered, how I didn’t handle the situation smoothly and how I could improve in the future. At an orange level, I may have beaten myself at a personal level with thoughts like “ I am not good enough at this”” or “what do other users think of me now”. Or there might be a defensiveness to protect the person with thoughts like “scholar doesn’t know anything about genetics. Who is he to criticize me?”. Yellow has transcended these types of personal dynamics. What appeared in my mind after I grasped scholar’s input was a sense of curiosity of the thought dynamics that arose in my mind and how these thought dynamics are inter-related with Angelo and scholar at a collective conscious level. There is a transcendent awareness and curiosity that is unattached and dis-identified that “wants” to explore this inter-personal communication. Somewhat similar to an dis-identified desire to explore human and plant communication when I am out in nature. Angelo could be a tree, scholar a river and me a chipmunk interacting together.

Thanks for your impressions. I can now see the dynamics with better clarity. In particular, I used way too much personification. Statements like “your statement of ‘abc’ shows you have a deficiency in ’xyz’” creates personality dynamics. Impersonal statements such as “the statement ‘abc’ does not include the relative nature of ’xyz’” are much better. Not only does it reduce personifying the other person, it reduces the personification of a “me”. As soon as someone says “you”, that immediately creates a “me” (since there is no “you” without a “me” relative to “you”). Stating “you have a deficiency” is inherently also saying “I don’t have this deficiency and I am able to judge that you have the deficiency”. This adds in all sorts of underlying personality dynamics that alter the energetics and are a distraction. A core component of yellow is that these types of personality dynamics are transcended and ideas are appearing without personal ownership and identification. . . One of the most challenging aspects is not drifting into a “I am right, you are wrong dynamic” or that in someway I am better/more developed than you. I also like your point about self reflection - it’s much better than self defense posture. Also, I went into a weird orange/yellow hybrid state in which I tried to establish orange level credibility and grounding, yet used yellow level abstraction that would appear highly ambiguous, irrational and irrelevant from an orange perspective. . . I like your comment that the specific topic of race was as relevant as saturns moons. . .

It was both. Yet if this was a one-on-one conversation, I would not have invested time into it. The risk I take doing this within a thread is coming across as condescending and arrogant. That is one of the hardest parts of being a so-called “spiral wizard”. At the human level, one of “my” weaknesses is engaging at blue/orange levels with people that want to debate. There is an inherent dynamic at these levels that there is an “I” that is right and a “you” that is wrong. I rarely engage like this these days, yet genetics is kinda my baby and I get triggered when I see people throwing it around like a rag doll.

@Scholar I just realized your templates were not your true positions. I’m also interested in pedagogy and I’m aware I have room for growth. Personally, I don’t have much patience for those with attachments to contracted, incomplete views in certain areas. In particular, people using science in distorted ways to support and promote a view that is unhealthy at a population level. I’m more concerned of impact at the collective consciousness level than at the individual conscious level. For example, the statement that “drinking wine prevents cancer” is partial and highly misleading. If someone is attached to this view and unwilling to learn about the nuances of this from an actual cancer researcher, that’s one thing. Yet such statements can have unhealthy impact at the collective level, it can perpetuate misunderstandings. Especially if the person seems to have some knowledge and is pasting science articles. Science is often used in partially inaccurate and misleading ways to further an agenda. This can have toxic effects effects at the population level. For example, using partially inaccurate and misleading statements to advance misconceptions about genetics, race and intelligence. This has real world effects. I teach plenty of students that have been conditioned with such misconceptions. I spend a lot of time deconditioning it.Time that could have spent with actual learning and skill building. As well, it is used as rational to perpetuate misconceptions at the population level - driving racial divisions. I think it’s important for scientists to step in and say “wait a minute, that’s not quite the science of it”. I’m much more interested in the collective impact than individual impact. I am aware Angelo is not receptive, yet there are people reading this thread that are receptive and transitioning to a higher conscious level. Everytime I write one of these types of threads, I get PMs from users asking about genetics as well as transiting into yellow.