Emerald

Victim blaming only encourages a culture where rape goes unreported and unaddressed. This enables rapists to rape more because rape victims seal their lips about it to avoid being victim-blamed, shamed, and accused of false accusations. No one who’s just been raped wants a half of society to then blame them for that rape. So, they choose to keep it to themselves and suffer in silence to avoid accusations and the scorn of victim blamers. And the rapists remain at large.

I’d say that’s pretty accurate. I’m guessing that most women sort pick up guys from their consideration automatically.

I hadn’t even read your posts on here when I wrote the questions. And I was just asking really direct questions because the OP was being very direct (and even insulting) about his views. And he was essentially saying that conservatives are better because they’re victim blamers, which is a wild take. And that would lead to so much mayhem in society if legislatively implemented or accepted as the default response to rape. And there’s just no need to pussy foot around people and their views. I’m not afraid of offending anyone. And I don’t agree with handling people with kid gloves. Everyone should be able to handle a direct challenge to their views… especially if they engage in straw manning and insults to get their point across. Poke the bear and the bear pokes backs. That’s the nature of things. Also, I really want to know the OPs answers to them and how he would try to square those circles.

@Roy Did you write your above post in relation to what I was saying about my sorting men from consideration who are overtly fixated upon women’s looks? If so, you’re misrepresenting what I was saying. I’m not shaming men for their attractions. There is no issue with men being visually attracted to women. That’s just part of it. And all heterosexual men will be attracted to a 10. And it’s not about trying to get guys to be attracted to who they’re not attracted to. That’s also not what I’m saying. It wouldn’t even be possible. It’s the reduction of women to their looks and their ability to provide the man status in the eyes of other men that is the boundary line for me. It just comes across as immature because these guys are using relationships with women for status seeking. So, that’s off-putting. And it’s a liability to be with a guy who’s very looks focused because looks fade with age. So, if you want a partner to go through your days with, it’s wise to sort men from consideration who are hyper-looks focused who want to seek status in the male hierarchy through the conquest of attractive women. And that’s not just a fraction of guys. These men are a sizable enough minority that they are everywhere. And they create all sorts of internet echo chambers. And it is wise for women to sort them from consideration. I would imagine you’d also sort women from consideration who were super focused on male status and always trying to collectively strategize to get the guy with the most money. I’ll mirror some things that I read on this thread to give you the sense. Like imagine a bunch of women on this forum got together and created a thread and were egging eachother on to land a rich guy or simply to get rich men to give them some of their money. And we’d be encouraging eachother through our feelings of insecurity that all women can get a high status money bag with enough inner work and the development of game. And when the men criticize us for objectifying them, the women will share the “harsh biological truth” that women are wired to be attracted to resources and status and that men are wired to give women those resources because of their natural provider role. I mean… it’s just biology. Right? And we’d remind them that women’s status is a given from birth, but men have to earn their keep through shows of status and wealth. And upon hearing this narrative play out, you’d be wise to sort these women from consideration because that would be a huge red flag. And it’s quite a bit different than the natural attraction that arises in relation to men who generally have their life together. The same is true for men who are simply attracted to women’s looks. Neither reduces the person down to just that.

I didn’t even argue with him in my post. So, I don’t even know what the reaction would be. I am just asking questions. He can choose to answer them if he wants to or not.

I’m not sure about the pyramid scheme thing. It all really comes down to looking for validation and a cure for shame. Status-seeking men are looking to be validated by attractive women and vica versa with status-seeking women. I once read a blog by this young woman who was relatively attractive. And she was operating off the notion that if she has a high status guy interested in her, that it means she’s a high status woman. And she was talking about sleeping with a guy for that reason. But she didn’t really think of what this implied about her self-esteem and why she needed to feel high status in the first place. So, I could see someone with that coping mechanism trying to gather social proof about the status of a guy.

Well, that’s definitely uninteresting to me. I never cared about status through that kind of lens. And a guy having a bunch of women on his arm is a bit of a red flag to me that it won’t be a good match. I want a guy to myself, so I don’t want some playboy who’s going to get bored in two months and start cheating. And I’m pretty sure this describes 80%+ of women. But I think status-driven men tend to want lots of hot women on their arm. And status-driven women want to be validated as the hot chick on the arm of a man who is desirable to other women. But this is all super bland to me. It’s like the dating version of Top 40 music that’s simultaneously super flashy and super bland all at once. There’s no real interest or intimacy there.

What do you mean by pre-selection? If you mean women being repelled by a man because he has red flags, then pre-selection makes sense. And it’s not even something that the woman has to try to do. She won’t think “I’m not going to be attracted to that guy.” The attraction just never happens. But a woman may also have certain dealbreakers too. Like a deal breaker of mine is if a guy views relationships in an immature way. And so, if I was single and a guy with immature views on relationships asked me out, I would say no on that basis alone because it’s a dealbreaker. But everyone naturally sorts to some degree. If you see a person acting erratically for example, you’re probably going to avoid that person because they’re showing signs that they’re unsafe. Why give that person a chance when you can give a person who’s behaving more safety a chance instead.

Well, I’m not exactly telling men what they SHOULD value in a woman. Any given man can value what he values. And if that’s to go and sleep with a super model then that’s just where he’s at in his development. But I am making it quite clear that it lowers their value as a romantic partner in my eyes and in the eyes of most women. It reveals that he’s probably not a good candidate for a serious relationship. I think a lot of guys think that it conveys high value on their part to comport themselves this way by showing that their standards are high.

I quoted you above when you say conservatives blame the rape victim and liberals blame the aggressor. And you said this was a good thing about conservatives because liberals blaming the aggressor and not the victim supports victim’s mentality. Edit: I thought I was reply to the OP. Sorry for the mix up.

“It's simpler than that. Let's go by my example of rape, the conservative approach. Liberalism blames the "aggressor" while conservatism blames the "victim". Conservatism is anti-victim mentality. Liberalism is pro-victim mentality.” So, would you recommend that we not prosecute rapes anymore? Or would you perhaps prosecute the rape victim for their own rape? How would you feel if you were a rape victim? Would you blame yourself and bite your tongue about it to avoid admitting that you’ve been victimized? Would you hold your tongue and allow yourself to be continually raped in order to avoid admitting your victimization so as not to fall prey to victim’s mentality? What about theft? If someone steals something from you, are you going to let the thief off the hook because it was your fault that you didn’t protect yourself from being stolen from?

I think I’d be concerned that I’ll be perceived as a threatening presence… like if I happen to be walking on the same sidewalk as a woman at night or something like that. So, I’d probably have to do some social re-calibrations. As for the biggest advantage, it would probably be about having my perspective respected more by men.

I wish I had your optimism. But it’s definitely not 95%. It’s probably closer to 80% of men who will still care… but even in that group it will be an question of degree to which that caring is overpowered by their validation seeking drives. It really depends on how mature the man is. And a sizable and vocal minority of men are very immature about the dating and relationships. What must be understood here is that (in general) a large percentage of the population aren’t that trustworthy. And to view 95% of any group as mature enough to “do the right thing” is foolish. This is why I recommend for women to notice red flags and screen potential partners for these tells about their level of maturity. And one such tell about a man’s maturity as it pertains to relationships is if a man holds the primary sex/relationship goal of getting with a 10. It tells you a lot about what he values. But to be clear, I’m not talking about men simply being visual in their initial attractions. That’s normal for heterosexual men to be attracted to pretty women. What I’m talking about is if a man is hyper-fixated on getting with a 10 because he wants the status (and therefore validation) associated with it. I’m talking specifically about men who mostly see women as status trophies.

What I’m saying is that it’s unwise for women to get involved with a guy who’s very fixated on looks. So, the marriage question doesn’t really relate because it’s not wise to even go out on a date with that kind of guy. He’s not going to value the woman for who she is in dating or marriage because this type of man only sees women as reflections of his own status and Masculinity.

It’s not a caricature nor is it extremely rare. It’s quite commonplace actually. And women encounter them fairly often. There are plenty of guys who only see women as arm candy. You were just talking to one of them when he literally said “women are trophies”. And how he would go for the unconscious 10 over the conscious 7 to have children with. These types of guys are a dime a dozen. Literally millions of these types of guys exist. And I’m a bit surprised that you’re not aware of this. Whether you like to look at it or not, there’s a sizable minority of men who see looks as women’s only or primary value. And my advice to women is to avoid those men because they are a liability.

If a guy is really fixated on getting 10s and deriving social status or validation from it, there’s a pretty high chance that he will devalue his woman as she ages, and he may even cheat or stray once the opportunity arises. Or he’ll become resentful at his partner for aging and/or gaining weight because he sees her looks as a reflection of his status and value as a man. So, if a man is overtly focused on women’s looks as an achievement of status for him, it’s wise for women to avoid that guy… especially if the woman is very attractive. Also, if a man cheats or strays… the woman is often the one that initiates the divorce in that scenario too. So, that statistic is pretty meaningless given that we don’t know why they’ve initiated the divorce.

I’m not saying the woman isn’t aware that the guy does it all the time. She definitely knows it’s spam attention. And this is why most women will give an immediate no to pick up guys. Pick up guys are not usually high value guys. They usually have some deficits in character or experience… and most women know this. And no. I personally tend to develop attractions to men only over time. It doesn’t matter what accoutrements the stranger has. I don’t know his character well enough to develop strong enough feelings to be interested in him. And I have very little patience for seemingly charming guys. It’s usually a thin facade. Also, I do tend to choose partners who haven’t had that many previous partners. I don’t do it on purpose. But all my partners have had either a single digit “body count” or low double digits like 11 or 12. My current partner has only had a handful of sexual partners. And I much prefer that to some guy with a 3 digit body count. But only because of what the 3 digit body count suggests about him and how he views sex. But I do understand that many men use pick up to get experience with women. And it’s useful in that sense. Just don’t be under the illusion that women generally find it attractive. They generally don’t. This is why the conversation rate is quite low outside of the context of bars and clubs. And it’s why Leo said you have to do like 1000 approaches before getting one yes.

I think the men who talk about these things like this don’t realize how much of an anti-advertisement this is from the perspective of a women. When a woman is deciding who she wants to be her partner, if she is wise, she will take his fixation on looks as a big red flag. A man who’s all about dating 10s is a liability to the woman. Even if the woman is a solid 10 now, she knows that beauty is ephemeral. And so, her beauty will fade. And such a man who needs a 10 to feel good about himself will leave her for a younger woman. And will leave the younger woman for a younger woman. And so on and so on until he’s 80 and married to an opportunistic 25 year old. He can keep re-upping on more and more 10s to prop up his self-esteem. But if she buys into this framework and tries to play this game, she can’t keep re-upping her looks the same way. And so women must die that death and find a mature man who understands the value in dying that death as well. They must both transcend the game. And many men and some women never will. And she is left feeling in a state of permanently increasing inadequacy where she hides herself from the world with every new line on her face. And he is in a constant search for youthful beauty to fill his voids by seeking newer and newer models. And any male/female relationship is doomed under this circumstance. So, the wise woman will look for tells of immaturity as it comes to women’s looks and sort the men accordingly.

It’s not even that. Shady men aren’t that attractive to most women when they imagine their ideal relationship. But an unpicky woman just gets feelings for some guy in her social circle and then ignores the red flags and deal-breakers. And this unfortunately can happen to any woman because the feelings are intense once they set in. It’s happened to me before. It’s following the heart without bringing the brain. And it’s seeing a man through such rose colored glasses that she doesn’t realize that she’s with a “low value partner’ It’s not that she’s necessarily interested in shady characters. Most adult women are not, unless they themselves are shady. But if she happens to develop strong feelings for a shady character, then previously held standards go out the window. Double that feeling if she hasn’t gotten a lot of love from her family of origin and has issues with shame. The guy could be an ugly couch potato who never bathes and does drugs all the time who hasn’t had a job in 10 years, and the woman will just accept it (or try to manipulate him into changing) because of how she feels. The trick is not to even give shady characters the time of day. The heart isn’t picky. It’ll just set itself on one of the guys in the social circle. And once that happens, it’s going to be hard to detach because the feelings are very strong. I think men underestimate the strength of those feelings… and how little they have to do with a man’s objective qualities. So, the best way to be a picky woman is to not interact that much with shady guys. You have to be picky before feelings have the opportunity to set in. That’s what wisened women do.

It’s not true though. Women honestly aren’t picky enough. So many women are with awful guys. The bar is really on the ground, Most men who think women are picky are probably just not that social and haven’t had that much experience. We are more selective than men and we don’t get easily impressed by random guys approaching. But women are often picky as it comes to feelings but not picky as it comes to the quality of the man. It’s unfortunately quite common that as long as a woman has feelings for a guy, she’ll bend over backwards to excuse all his flaws and shortcomings and throw standards out the window. I’ve seen great women jump through hoops to hold onto total deadbeats and jerks. And that’s because women are selective, but once she selects it goes really deep. But she’s not selecting on some meritocratic basis. It’s all about feelings. So if she has no strong feelings for a guy, she’s going to be pretty neutral about him. This might be where the illusion of pickiness comes from. Most women won’t be interested in a given man. She’s not like a guy who is interested in women in general. The prospect of men being interested in her is pretty boring. But once she likes a guy (which comes about for no logical or meritocratic value) a sizable minority of women forget all about their standards. So, women generally are not picky at all… though they are more selective in that they will usually only be interested in one or a few guys at a time.

You’re welcome ?

My purpose for posting it is that men who are falling into this trap (and I’ve seen many on this forum) will recognize it as a trap and liberate themselves from this victim’s narrative that will never be satisfying. The solution is for men to let go of false old-school prescriptions around Masculinity and actually find the deep Masculine within. But first, the necessity it for men to recognize that their worth as a person isn’t contingent on how close they are to Masculine prescriptions… and it isn’t contingent upon what women think of them.