Emerald

I quoted you above when you say conservatives blame the rape victim and liberals blame the aggressor. And you said this was a good thing about conservatives because liberals blaming the aggressor and not the victim supports victim’s mentality. Edit: I thought I was reply to the OP. Sorry for the mix up.

“It's simpler than that. Let's go by my example of rape, the conservative approach. Liberalism blames the "aggressor" while conservatism blames the "victim". Conservatism is anti-victim mentality. Liberalism is pro-victim mentality.” So, would you recommend that we not prosecute rapes anymore? Or would you perhaps prosecute the rape victim for their own rape? How would you feel if you were a rape victim? Would you blame yourself and bite your tongue about it to avoid admitting that you’ve been victimized? Would you hold your tongue and allow yourself to be continually raped in order to avoid admitting your victimization so as not to fall prey to victim’s mentality? What about theft? If someone steals something from you, are you going to let the thief off the hook because it was your fault that you didn’t protect yourself from being stolen from?

I think I’d be concerned that I’ll be perceived as a threatening presence… like if I happen to be walking on the same sidewalk as a woman at night or something like that. So, I’d probably have to do some social re-calibrations. As for the biggest advantage, it would probably be about having my perspective respected more by men.

I wish I had your optimism. But it’s definitely not 95%. It’s probably closer to 80% of men who will still care… but even in that group it will be an question of degree to which that caring is overpowered by their validation seeking drives. It really depends on how mature the man is. And a sizable and vocal minority of men are very immature about the dating and relationships. What must be understood here is that (in general) a large percentage of the population aren’t that trustworthy. And to view 95% of any group as mature enough to “do the right thing” is foolish. This is why I recommend for women to notice red flags and screen potential partners for these tells about their level of maturity. And one such tell about a man’s maturity as it pertains to relationships is if a man holds the primary sex/relationship goal of getting with a 10. It tells you a lot about what he values. But to be clear, I’m not talking about men simply being visual in their initial attractions. That’s normal for heterosexual men to be attracted to pretty women. What I’m talking about is if a man is hyper-fixated on getting with a 10 because he wants the status (and therefore validation) associated with it. I’m talking specifically about men who mostly see women as status trophies.

What I’m saying is that it’s unwise for women to get involved with a guy who’s very fixated on looks. So, the marriage question doesn’t really relate because it’s not wise to even go out on a date with that kind of guy. He’s not going to value the woman for who she is in dating or marriage because this type of man only sees women as reflections of his own status and Masculinity.

It’s not a caricature nor is it extremely rare. It’s quite commonplace actually. And women encounter them fairly often. There are plenty of guys who only see women as arm candy. You were just talking to one of them when he literally said “women are trophies”. And how he would go for the unconscious 10 over the conscious 7 to have children with. These types of guys are a dime a dozen. Literally millions of these types of guys exist. And I’m a bit surprised that you’re not aware of this. Whether you like to look at it or not, there’s a sizable minority of men who see looks as women’s only or primary value. And my advice to women is to avoid those men because they are a liability.

If a guy is really fixated on getting 10s and deriving social status or validation from it, there’s a pretty high chance that he will devalue his woman as she ages, and he may even cheat or stray once the opportunity arises. Or he’ll become resentful at his partner for aging and/or gaining weight because he sees her looks as a reflection of his status and value as a man. So, if a man is overtly focused on women’s looks as an achievement of status for him, it’s wise for women to avoid that guy… especially if the woman is very attractive. Also, if a man cheats or strays… the woman is often the one that initiates the divorce in that scenario too. So, that statistic is pretty meaningless given that we don’t know why they’ve initiated the divorce.

I’m not saying the woman isn’t aware that the guy does it all the time. She definitely knows it’s spam attention. And this is why most women will give an immediate no to pick up guys. Pick up guys are not usually high value guys. They usually have some deficits in character or experience… and most women know this. And no. I personally tend to develop attractions to men only over time. It doesn’t matter what accoutrements the stranger has. I don’t know his character well enough to develop strong enough feelings to be interested in him. And I have very little patience for seemingly charming guys. It’s usually a thin facade. Also, I do tend to choose partners who haven’t had that many previous partners. I don’t do it on purpose. But all my partners have had either a single digit “body count” or low double digits like 11 or 12. My current partner has only had a handful of sexual partners. And I much prefer that to some guy with a 3 digit body count. But only because of what the 3 digit body count suggests about him and how he views sex. But I do understand that many men use pick up to get experience with women. And it’s useful in that sense. Just don’t be under the illusion that women generally find it attractive. They generally don’t. This is why the conversation rate is quite low outside of the context of bars and clubs. And it’s why Leo said you have to do like 1000 approaches before getting one yes.

I think the men who talk about these things like this don’t realize how much of an anti-advertisement this is from the perspective of a women. When a woman is deciding who she wants to be her partner, if she is wise, she will take his fixation on looks as a big red flag. A man who’s all about dating 10s is a liability to the woman. Even if the woman is a solid 10 now, she knows that beauty is ephemeral. And so, her beauty will fade. And such a man who needs a 10 to feel good about himself will leave her for a younger woman. And will leave the younger woman for a younger woman. And so on and so on until he’s 80 and married to an opportunistic 25 year old. He can keep re-upping on more and more 10s to prop up his self-esteem. But if she buys into this framework and tries to play this game, she can’t keep re-upping her looks the same way. And so women must die that death and find a mature man who understands the value in dying that death as well. They must both transcend the game. And many men and some women never will. And she is left feeling in a state of permanently increasing inadequacy where she hides herself from the world with every new line on her face. And he is in a constant search for youthful beauty to fill his voids by seeking newer and newer models. And any male/female relationship is doomed under this circumstance. So, the wise woman will look for tells of immaturity as it comes to women’s looks and sort the men accordingly.

It’s not even that. Shady men aren’t that attractive to most women when they imagine their ideal relationship. But an unpicky woman just gets feelings for some guy in her social circle and then ignores the red flags and deal-breakers. And this unfortunately can happen to any woman because the feelings are intense once they set in. It’s happened to me before. It’s following the heart without bringing the brain. And it’s seeing a man through such rose colored glasses that she doesn’t realize that she’s with a “low value partner’ It’s not that she’s necessarily interested in shady characters. Most adult women are not, unless they themselves are shady. But if she happens to develop strong feelings for a shady character, then previously held standards go out the window. Double that feeling if she hasn’t gotten a lot of love from her family of origin and has issues with shame. The guy could be an ugly couch potato who never bathes and does drugs all the time who hasn’t had a job in 10 years, and the woman will just accept it (or try to manipulate him into changing) because of how she feels. The trick is not to even give shady characters the time of day. The heart isn’t picky. It’ll just set itself on one of the guys in the social circle. And once that happens, it’s going to be hard to detach because the feelings are very strong. I think men underestimate the strength of those feelings… and how little they have to do with a man’s objective qualities. So, the best way to be a picky woman is to not interact that much with shady guys. You have to be picky before feelings have the opportunity to set in. That’s what wisened women do.

It’s not true though. Women honestly aren’t picky enough. So many women are with awful guys. The bar is really on the ground, Most men who think women are picky are probably just not that social and haven’t had that much experience. We are more selective than men and we don’t get easily impressed by random guys approaching. But women are often picky as it comes to feelings but not picky as it comes to the quality of the man. It’s unfortunately quite common that as long as a woman has feelings for a guy, she’ll bend over backwards to excuse all his flaws and shortcomings and throw standards out the window. I’ve seen great women jump through hoops to hold onto total deadbeats and jerks. And that’s because women are selective, but once she selects it goes really deep. But she’s not selecting on some meritocratic basis. It’s all about feelings. So if she has no strong feelings for a guy, she’s going to be pretty neutral about him. This might be where the illusion of pickiness comes from. Most women won’t be interested in a given man. She’s not like a guy who is interested in women in general. The prospect of men being interested in her is pretty boring. But once she likes a guy (which comes about for no logical or meritocratic value) a sizable minority of women forget all about their standards. So, women generally are not picky at all… though they are more selective in that they will usually only be interested in one or a few guys at a time.

You’re welcome ?

My purpose for posting it is that men who are falling into this trap (and I’ve seen many on this forum) will recognize it as a trap and liberate themselves from this victim’s narrative that will never be satisfying. The solution is for men to let go of false old-school prescriptions around Masculinity and actually find the deep Masculine within. But first, the necessity it for men to recognize that their worth as a person isn’t contingent on how close they are to Masculine prescriptions… and it isn’t contingent upon what women think of them.

I’ve seen plenty of posts on here before about this… as early as a few days ago. There are LOTS of guys who see women as being to blame for their feelings of inadequacy… and their difficulties/insecurities about masculinity and dating. ‘It’s because women are too picky.’ ‘It’s because of Feminist brainwashing.’ ‘It’s because women are too loose.’ ’It’s because women aren’t Feminine anymore.’ Etc.

Couldn’t have said it better myself ?

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That’s true of the hero as an archetype. But human beings are not archetypes. They are only informed by them. The archetype of the hero can only be integrated internally. It does not rely on the external to validate it.

Yes, it’s definitely not something that can be put on from the outside. Masculinity is real. But it has nothing to do with these Fetishized notions of the Masculine and Feminine.

No, it says the IDEA of Masculinity is constructed in relation to a Fetishized and unrealistic ideal of Femininity. And so it creates an illusion in many men that women are responsible for the man’s Masculinity. Thus, when a man feels like he isn’t measuring up to the IDEA of Masculinity, he blames women for deviating from the Fetishized unrealistic IDEA of the Feminine.

Yep. They have to take responsibility for their own insecurities without scapegoating and blaming women for their own issues. The call is coming from inside the house. It’s always so weird when guys on here want women to take responsibility for their insecurities. And are like… women need to change. It’s always so random to have these things projected onto you because.

Yes definitely. And what’s funny is that the male victim narrative runs completely counter to the Masculine ideals that they claim to want to embody.