Emerald

That's a straw man of what I'm saying, and you know it. I never said many men are compelled by glory holes. I'd imagine that less than half would be willing to go to a glory hole. I said, that men are compelled towards sex the way that Shaggy and Scooby are compelled towards food.... but that that orientation towards sex doesn't usually scratch the itch for women.

Yes, that's true. Erotica tends to be a lot more stimulating than porn from my pov as well because the story evokes emotions and mimics in the imagination the real life experience of being with a living breathing person. And I can watch porn and be turned on by it, and it enhances the self-pleasuring. But it's a different mode of arousal altogether that's far less compelling. Like, there's so much heart-centered and mind-centered arousal that gets missed with porn. And I tend to feel drained afterwards. But I feel energized, if I've just used my imagination or read some kind of erotica (which I rarely do. I prefer my imagination.)

Sure, women can enjoy that from time to time. And I've certainly had my fair share "Scooby Doo sex" with some one night stands or even just routine sex with a partner. And there wasn't anything very complex about it, and it's enjoyable enough. Though, I don't think many women would enjoy a glory hole specifically as most women don't want to suck random dicks through the wall. I'm sure that some do. But I don't think that's very many women's fantasy. What I'm saying is that, women tend to be far less compelled by this type of sexual interaction... while men are highly compelled by it. Women are more compelled by all the emotional subtleties associated with the sexual experience. And we're HIGHLY compelled by it. But this makes us generally pickier with sex and less motivated towards it, because Scooby Doo sex usually doesn't scratch the actual itch. Scooby Doo sex is a bit like eating food that has no flavor. And that's fine for morning oatmeal. But if you're a woman, you're going to need a little more than that to get really excited. And because of this pickiness, the conclusion is often drawn that women aren't as lustful. But that's because there's a whole kaleidoscope of feelings that has to be in play for us to really want sex. And we're super obsessed with that kaleidoscope. But in most sexual encounters, you're probably not going to feel the kaleidoscope.

Thank you. I find that sex is super intriguing to me on so many levels, and I think about it a lot. But I don't need it in large quantities. It's a different mode that's less about the a to b pursuit of orgasm. And I'm not very motivated towards climax most of the time. It's very non-linear and non-directional. And it's more like bathing in a soup of very intriguing pleasant emotions and meanings. It's like a wine-taster who enjoys picking up on all these different subtle notes, but rarely drinks wine for the purpose of getting drunk. And without these complex subtle emotional flavors, sex and orgasm is somewhat boring because the physical sexual sensation by itself is only mildly compelling. It's taking something subtle and multi-dimensional and collapsing it down to something overt and uni-dimensional, which can feel draining. And this is what often leads men to the conclusion that women aren't as interested in sex. But that's not true. It's just that sex without emotions is like eating bland food with no spice. And Gordon Ramsey would probably go hungry rather than eat bland food with no spice.

Some can overlook taste in exchange for money. It's probably not the case that very many women would work a glory hole for her own gratification.

Yes, I would be fine with engaging with the content of his argument if he were treating me with respect. I'm happy to have a debate. But I have a non-negotiable boundary that I will not read or respond to arguments that are peppered with insults and personal attacks. So, I haven't dismissed his perspective as pure ad hominem, as I don't know what his perspective is beyond what I can take in at a cursory glance. But I refuse to read/engage with his perspective because of the screed of ad hominem attacks and the lack of a basic level of respect.

Spicy cats is a good way to put it. If you go on a Red Pill or Incel forum or read any post from anywhere by a guy who is resistant to the Feminine, the main things that sticks out to me is that it feels very catty... like Mean Girls vibes. And I know that that's like the opposite of the image that these guys are wanting to portray. Also, thank you for the support. <3 I'm glad those times are over. But these experiences have made me who I am.

Thank you. I appreciate the support.

I was thinking it might be something like that. I'm very close with someone that can get triggered into some patterns like this where he feels responsible for keeping women from losing their minds, because his mom and sister had/have alcoholism and Schizophrenia which caused episodes where they'd be hallucinating and thinking delusionally. And as a very young child, the adults around him were like "take care of your mother" because his dad wasn't around and his older sister wasn't capable of helping because she was also a child and had her own mental health issues. So, he's got all this feeling of responsibility at the age of 6 for his mother's well-being, and he also feels responsible for his sister now. And even now, if I get too excited... or if I get a little angry... or sad... or show strong emotion at all, he can start getting freaked out and over-functioning... though he's much better about it now if I tell him to cool his jets. But it used to cause a real strain on our relationship back when we were romantic partners. And he would constantly be criticizing me and trying to control me and teach me how everything I'm doing is wrong. And our relationship became like a controlling dad who was constantly reprimanding their recalcitrant rebellious teenage daughter who just won't listen to 'reason'. And the 12 year age gap didn't help matters on this front. And when I finally ended the romantic part of our relationship, he admitted to me that he saw himself as my teacher that needed to train me and fix me so that I could start operating normally. And it was only then that it occurred to him that that wasn't the right way to operate and he apologized and has made a lot of progress on this front. But that's what the poster who keeps talking about me reminds me a little of. And it makes me wonder if he's got some similar trauma patterns in his background to where he was made to be responsible for his mom or other female family members' mental health issues at a young age. He seems to be over-functioning and trying to get me to listen to him and to 'dispossess me of my delusions'. So, it's very familiar.

Thank you! It's been 15 years since all that craziness from back then. But it was a chaotic and painful but important time in my life. I have a 13 yo daughter and a 9 yo son. And in them approaching the age when things became chaotic for me (early teens to 20), it really drives home how vulnerable I was at the time and how much I was having to navigate dangerous and difficult waters while building my identity and preparing for adult life. In one of my medicine journeys, it showed me that these experiences and the more stifling pains from age 13 and before were given to me as a gift (a sampler platter of many experiences and traumas on many scales of intensity) to learn how the really world is... and to learn about trauma, coping, human motivation, etc. so that I can gain the perspective and wisdom to help people in many situations from a place of lived experience. So, this perspective has been helpful to see. And I see my negative experiences as some of the most prized treasures of my life.

Yes, that's exactly how it is. You become fixated on that one particular guy, and every other guy is whatever... even guys who are kinder, better, more attractive, etc. etc. etc. And to your point from the previous message, this can also repel a guy because guys tend to fall in love through trying to earn a woman's appreciation and affection. And feeling these feelings too openly or intensely can 'spoil the game' for a guy, and he won't really appreciate the affection without the sense that he earned it through this that or the other action or quality. So, it's a delicate needle to thread... as this Feminine way of becoming attracted to a man without boundaries and temperance can backfire and can cause a woman to step into the lover role, which is a Masculine archetype that's all about giving love. And she can start over-functioning and treating him like the beloved, and trying to woo the guy and give and give and give, which he may enjoy but doesn't fall in love with. And it creates an imbalance of investment that is repellant. She may try to woo him by giving him sex, a pretty face/body, affection, love, cooking, cleaning, low-maintenance girlfriend treatment with low commitment, etc. in hopes of winning his affection. And this is her projecting her own sexuality onto him, because she would like him to invest in her and give and believes that he responds to the same thing. But men usually don't respond with love to receiving. He's more likely to respond with love to giving and being appreciated for what he gives. So, it requires the ability to temper those feelings and to maintain quite a bit of restraint and opacity... and to create more space when every fiber of your being says "Get closer!!!!" And thank you for the compliment! Before I became a mom at 22, my life was a lot more chaotic. But I learned a lot about people during that time. And it's all very helpful to me now because it gives me some different points of perspective.

Yuck it up if you want. It wasn't obvious to me as a teenager because most people around me had their own special brand of crazy, and low standards of moral behavior was just the way half or more of the people operated in my hometown as a folkway. Such is the way of growing up in the trashier areas in a small Florida redneck town. And I was unconsciously judgmental of the people with low standards of moral behavior, and I sought to differentiate myself. And I became identified with hyper-specific moral standards including self-sacrificing... which put me in a state of tolerating a lot of things I shouldn't have and priding myself on being (supposedly) non-judgmental of others as a cornerstone of my identity. And I knew plenty of peers and adults who had been in and out of jail/prison that were otherwise okay people, but didn't understand the extent to which that would invite chaos and pain into my life to be romantically involved with someone who the local cops know personally. But in general, when you're in these types of settings and it's super common for people to have low standards of behavior, you lose a certain degree of disgust and discernment. It's like going nose-blind to a bad smell... or getting used to cockroaches crawling all over you at night because you're living in an infestation. So, I didn't have the firewalls to be adequately picky. As a contrast, it was really quite a culture shock going to a liberal arts college with tons of upper middle class people with Stage Green values. For the first few months that I was there, I was trying to bond over conspiracy theories like I would with people in my hometown. And that didn't play very well in that culture and had the opposite effect of connection.

That's definitely Rule #1!

Then plug another chef with a love for food but selective tastes into the metaphor.

I don't see it as a form of unconditional love. It's definitely SUPER conditional. But it's not conditioned primarily upon specific objective qualities. It's conditioned on him being precisely who he is. It's more about an appreciation of the whole gestalt of his personality and who he is as a unique living breathing feeling human being. I would call it hyper-subjectificaton where that one guy becomes like a demi-god in a woman's eyes. And that's true even if he doesn't possess objectively attractive or positive qualities. And yes, that can be a huge issue. This tendency has a pretty self-destructive side to it if a woman doesn't get ruthlessly picky about who she allows to get close to her. Once a woman has her heart set on a particular man and she gets attached, boundaries can be difficult. This is why it's important to integrate the Masculine side, which is to set clear boundaries and standards for the men she spends time with... lest she be struck by Cupid's arrow for a man who will drag down the quality of her life. So, it's SO important to have solid deal breakers and to be able to protect your boundaries as a woman because these feelings put you in a vulnerable position. And that's especially true if you're young and inexperienced. Like back when I was between age 16 and 20, I had no boundaries because I thought boundaries were wrong to have. I thought that I would be a bitch if I had any boundaries, and that was a huge fear for me at the time. When I was 16, I fell in love with my first boyfriend who was 17. And we were together for 4 years. And he had some redeeming qualities. But he was mostly a mess of a guy who was going nowhere in his life. And I lived with him, his mom, and his sister in my junior and senior year of high school before I went to college. And he was very chaotic and would frequently threaten to commit suicide... often as a means to control me or evoke certain reactions from me. And he was also in and out of jail for petty crimes. And life was very stressful with him because he was super unreliable and irresponsible. But I had this deeply held belief that "If I love him, I should be willing to support him and stick with him through anything." And he didn't have much of anything going for him, but I had this deep value of loyalty where I would sacrifice myself for him again and again and again. And I kept trying to act as an almost motherly figure to him because his life had been very traumatic and neither of his parents had ever given him any nurturing. His mom was an alcoholic and was a decent person but very rough and tough. He also witnessed his older brother having hung himself when he was 12. And his dad even tried to shoot him at the request of a hooker he had brought home when my ex-bf we was 14. (Side note: His dad also enlisted the help of a drug dealer to try to steal our van by pretending like he was being held for ransom unless my ex-bf would sign the title over. And a few months before he and I got together, my ex-bf was seeing a girl who was also 17 like he was. And he took her to Tampa with him for a week to stay with his dad. And his dad started giving her (a 17yo) crack in exchange for sex. I could go on and on about his dad and how terrible he is.) So, when he and I got together, I was trying EXTRA hard to compensate for all of his pain by being as loving and nurturing as possible. And I was endlessly enabling. But one night, when I was 20, he went full-blown homicidal with me and started threatening to kill me and himself. And he was leading me around by the pedestrian walking area downtown at 3am and holding a broken beer bottle to my throat for about an hour as we walked and he was threatening to cut me and also to snap my neck. And he led me to the fort that's in the same area and was holding me next to a high ledge near the for with a 10-15 ft drop and threatening to push me off and asking me if I trust him or not. Funny enough, I wasn't too too scared... because he never went through with anything he ever said he was going to do. And he'd never been violent with me before. It was just sad and traumatic. Needless to say, I had to break with that value and end it. And it was a painful but important lesson to learn that I needed to grow some claws. Then when I finally severed the tie, I didn't really have a support system. And out of loneliness, I started spending time around guy who was about a decade older than me, and I had started to catch feelings for him. And he had all sorts of issues with heavy drugs. And he'd lost custody of his kid. And he was showing so many abuse red flags just in a few week's span of time. And I could sense with those hyper-subjectifying feelings that were kicking in that I was going out of the frying pan and into the fire. So because I was very alone in the world at that time, I deliberately went out and found another random guy to spend time around that I was generically attracted to that wasn't as chaotic. It was a crazy time with many lessons. And one of them is that you have to be super picky about the guys you spend time with BEFORE those feelings fully set in.

I'm glad it made you laugh.

Let's put it this way. Men love sex like Scooby and Shaggy love food. Women love sex like Gordon Ramsey loves food. Who loves food more? Scooby and Shaggy or Gordon Ramsey?

I totally agree with this. It's sad but also interesting how triggering it is for them to hear that, when a woman is genuinely interested in them, that they are actually being appreciated for the core of who they are as a unique person. It's like trying to take a hurt and scared animal out of bear trap, but they start scratching and biting your hand as you do it. They are so afraid that the core of them is unlovable, and they believe that women cannot see what's lovable about them beyond their utility to us. If they could just see once through the eyes of the Feminine and the a-rational lens of beauty that it isn't like that, they would be dispossessed of a lot of shame instead of feeling so inadequate and like they need to change so many things about themselves to be loved, appreciated, and validated.

Thank you!

You're welcome! I'm glad it resonates.

I used to worry the same way that men aren't capable of loving a woman at an equivalent level of depth. But not as much anymore because I've worked with so many male clients and have had several partners over the years that are very loving. And so many of them crave to be love and be loved deeply. But there are lots of men who will avoid looking deeper at our sexuality because he fears the Feminine in himself and others... and fears what he cannot control or gain leverage over. And this is why there is so much resistance to a deeper more holistic understanding of female sexuality as so many men already feel powerless to the Feminine. But it is a good litmus test for the level of maturity and Feminine integration a man has if he's curious and open about the Feminine and is able to explore the beauty of it... or if he's closed off and wants to stick to his utilitarian illusions of knowing. For me, I really need a man to be curious about the beauty of my feelings for me to be intrigued.... instead of him seeing my feelings for him as this ugly garish thing that gets reduced down to pure utility. It makes me feel really unseen with these projections papered over what I consider to be one of the most interesting and beautiful parts of myself. And in theory, most the guys on here value depth. But most of the guys on here are too hyper-masculine, logical, and nerdy to appreciate beauty. They only understand utility. And yet they crave and are starved for beauty. But they reject it if you try to open them up to the lens of beauty. Not all men of course. Some men are developed enough to be genuinely intrigued by the Feminine. Not all men are sailors. Some men are scuba divers that are interested in us merfolk.

Funnily enough, it's usually inexperienced men who've never had a functional longterm relationship with a woman and who are afraid to talk to their female peers that are the most resistant to my insights. But they are the ones that can benefit the very most from what I'm sharing. Listen to us old broads from time to time, and you might just learn something.

And you're incorrect about that assumption. If you want to know some insights about female sexuality, you can look back at my previous posts.

Let me explain it this way. The perspective that Leo is speaking from isn't holistic and multi-perspectival as it pertains to female sexuality. And because of this, he often draws incorrect inferences about the nature of female sexuality because he is only looking at female sexuality from one angle... which is the pragmatic 'what do men have to do to get a woman' angle. It's kind of like looking at a cylinder from one angle and saying it's a rectangle, while the other person says it's a circle. Leo is looking at female sexuality ONLY as the circle... when it is a cylinder. And to be fair, the average woman is only looking at it as the rectangle, which is inaccurate. And that is what people believe that I'm doing. And this is why so many are resistant to my insights. But I've deeply studied this cylinder from many angles because I am interested in looking at female sexuality more in depth in ways that aren't pragmatic but are just about learning and understanding how this machine ticks. It's a passion of mine, and I'm deeply compelled to explore. And my insights are rare and valuable for people that have the ears to hear them. But most on here won't recognize the value because they aren't thinking multi-perspectivally about female sexuality. And they don't see the value in doing that because they mistakenly believe that it isn't going to benefit them personally. But the cylinder of female sexuality is only 20% circle and only looks like a circle from the specific vantage point that men have, and that the rest of the form is very different from a circle. The issue isn't that men are operating from the circle paradigm when they're practically engaged with meeting a woman. That's not my issue. Use the circle paradigm practically if it helps you. My issue is that there are many incorrect inferences that are being drawn about female sexuality due to the circle perspective paradigm lock. And I want to liberate them from these incorrect inferences that are creating tons of shame and issues with connecting with women. It's like the blind men and the elephant. Men in these paradigm-locks are hyper-fixated on the tusks of female sexuality. And they've created all these weird false narratives in their mind that women are made out of pure ivory. So, be careful not to draw too many guesses and inferences and weave too many narratives around your certainty about female sexuality being a circle.

I agree with everything in the bolded part above... if we're defining low value partners similarly. I define low value partners as men who are unstable, immature, selfish, shallow, disloyal, irresponsible, cold, callous, ungrounded, etc. And I don't even need to consciously sort for these qualities, because I can sense them straight away and there is an automatic repulsion. So, I define low value men less by physical attractiveness, height, or net worth... and more by "How much do I trust him?" and "How much do I value his character and personality" and "Is he a reliable person?" etc. Of course, these objective qualities are nice to have, and I can have deal breakers that pertain to those qualities. Like if I think a guy is ugly or he's broke and can't be a supportive partner that contributes to a household, I probably won't be able to be attracted to him. But those qualities aren't the thing I seem to be intuitively maximizing for. Those are just lines in the sand, and if a guy meets or exceeds them, they're not a deal breaker. So, if you're defining "low value guys" the way that I do, I agree with the bolded parts above. But the first thing that you had mentioned about screening for the tallest, hottest, smartest, richest guy is not something that I can relate... except the intelligence part which is a necessity for me in order to have an eye-to-eye intimate connection with a guy. And I've noticed that to operate off of searching for a laundry list of signifiers of universally agreed upon social value doesn't seem to yield very good results for the women who get involved with guys that tick all these boxes. Many people can operate off of the thought process, "If I'm with a partner that's more attractive than me, that means that I'm also high value." But I've tended to operate through the opposite thought process of wanting to be regarded as the peacock of the relationship... at least in terms of looks and whimsy. I like it if a guy feels like he's punching a little bit above his weight and finds my affection towards him meaningful and surprising. And this has led to this feeling of being valued... which feels stable and secure. And it's also exciting to be the peacock because you get to feel the other's desire for you like you are the apple of their eye. And I think this is why I've had a pretty easy time finding compatible partners that value me and are highly invested in me as a person. I don't have any sense of scarcity in that way because I can tell who values me... and I'm highly compelled by feeling valued and desired as a person. So, I like to be in the role of the beloved when I'm engaged with a guy. And I like for him to feel like he has to step into the lover role to woo me. And I just can't imagine a Brad Pitt-looking guy doing that. That type of dynamic would put me in this awkward role of trying to win his affection, and then he'd feel like he was punching below his weight. And that whole dynamic would turn me off. So, I tend to get attracted to average-looking sexually-reserved intelligent guys with good character and a stable life who are slightly less sought after than I am... if I can intuitively sense that he will regard me as his beloved based off of my looks and personality. This is a good way for me to sum up the types of guys that I tend to become attracted to the most often. And this dynamic is the one that I find the most gratifying. But in the opposite dynamic, where the guy is more attractive than the woman or if he has aspirations to maximize every element of his life, the woman can become an option and just part of his rotation... which is the opposite of being regarded as the beloved. And the relationships I've seen that fall into this category can be pretty shallow and anxiety provoking for the woman because the guy isn't that into the woman and wants to see if he can do better and get a hotter woman. Or he may even just want more freedom and sexual variety. He could even want to embody the image of the ideal masculine and have tons of women regarding him as the beloved. Of course, this dynamic can also be true for guys who aren't tall, hot, smart, or rich. But it's more of that maximizing status mindset that leads to a constant dissatisfaction with where he's at in life and a desire for more and better. So, these guys can have trouble with settling down with a specific woman... even if they value marriage and family consciously.... because they always sense that there's some better woman out there. And they can spend a lot of time chasing an imaginary ideal of a woman. And it's a very insecure relationship that tends to emerge when the man is the beloved of the relationship, as she will love and adore him... but him not love and adore her. But if the woman is the beloved of the relationship, he will love and adore her and she will reciprocate. And this leads to more stable relationships.