Emerald

I'm not talking specifically about pickup guys. I'm talking about Red Pill, Incels, and that types of guy. You can find this pattern in pickup communities too because there is crossover. But I'm talking about a different sort of echo chamber.

I'm very glad to hear that. Thank you for letting me know.

There’s deeper intimacy, cuddling, sex, parenthood and lots of other subtle dynamics that can only be had with a male partner as opposed to a friend. And I don’t see why provision would be off the table as something men are valued for after Feminism. I personally prefer a dynamic of mutual contribution in a relationship. But that’s still provision. It’s just the sense that I don’t have to do it all alone and that I have someone to share life with. And that I have someone that I can rely on for help if I need it. It’s a feeling of relaxation knowing I don’t have to deal with things alone and that I don’t have to struggle against life by myself. It’s the closeness, affection, companionship, and mutual support that I value the most. And I prefer that dynamic with a man.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to get better with dating/approach skills. It’s useful. And of course motivations are multifaceted. If the shame dynamic I talked about was resolved totally, men would still want/need skills for meeting women. So, I’m sure when you sought out pickup, you probably had quite a lot of your motivation based on functionality. Also, while most men have some level of shame relative to the dynamic that I mentioned, keep in mind that I’m talking about guys who specifically end up in communities like the ones in the Manosphere. And shame is the glue that keeps those communities coalescing together. But if you don’t think you’re dealing with shame, I would implore you to look again. People who get really into self-improvement tend to have a lot of shame because many are trying to transcend some intonation of themselves that they disliked and could not stomach. So, even though I wouldn’t characterize you as a Manosphere guy because you’re not getting sucked into those communities, I can notice that your acceptance of yourself is very conditional. The more conditional your self-acceptance is, the more shame you will have. That’s true even if you’re meeting all of your conditions.

You’d be incorrect to not call that shame as the shame is as I described it by definition. Men can feel shame if they struggle to get sex if they make the meaning “I’m not lovable” or “I’m not enough” out of it. And anyone who struggles in that department could end up creating some of those shame narratives about themselves even if they don’t fall into the manosphere vortex. But even men in these kinds of communities who have a high degree of self-efficacy with getting sex from women still feel shame. And that’s because the shame can’t be fixed by getting better with women… or by any means of self-improvement. So getting sex doesn’t change that because the shame is about feeling invalid on the level of being. And we can cope with shame through all means of self-improvement tactics. But these tactics cannot fix our shame issues even if we do overcome the perceived problem. The only antidote to shame is unconditional self-love and self-compassion.

If it were just a sexual need, it wouldn’t be expressed in such a toxic way. And if it were just a sexual need, it would go away in men who get good at doing pick-up. But it doesn’t. There are plenty of men in these communities of shame who have female partners and who are good at getting sex who still hold the same resentments. So, I’m not just talking about incels.

That’s more like the definition of embarrassment and guilt… which often get used interchangeably with shame. Embarrassment/Humiliation is being seen by others in a foolish light that we don’t want to be seen in. Guilt/remorse is having done something that hurt someone or that we see as unethical and feeling bad about it. But shame is about feeling like we are invalid. It’s the feeling of exile and like we don’t belong in a social group or in reality at large. It is to feel unlovable and like we are a mistake.

To explain this we have to see how the current societal structure isn’t working towards pro-social ends. We all live in fractured off single-family households without a strong sense of community. And those single-family households easily break apart. So, we’re living in a very fractured lonely time period which only gets worse with social media because we’re not socializing in person. And everyone’s running a rat race just to make ends meet and doesn’t have energy to engage in community. But the reality that I’ve noticed is that people need each other. Not just on a task level… but on a connection level. So, husbands and wives still rely on one another to contribute to the household and children. It’s nearly impossible to do it alone. But more so that that, there is a deep-seated connection need that we have for the people in our lives. And many (probably most) women need a connection with a long term male partner to feel like their social/emotional needs are fulfilled. For women who have been hurt by a man in the past, this can create a lot of painful feelings because there is a sense that they need what hurts them. And it can create feelings of powerlessness and anger. I see similar dynamics with men who have bad experiences with a woman. But overall, men might feel the most unneeded if he lacks a feeling of contribution to a relationship, family, or wider community. Or if he feels like his contributions aren’t acknowledged. But the number one thing a man can do to offset this is to be in community and relationships with those who value him.

Shame is what happens when we apply some condition upon ourselves in order to be existentially valid. And shame is to be in the illusion that we are separate from all things in reality and don’t belong here. Sometimes people build their motivational drivers on the foundation of getting away from shame. But this leaves them with a lifetime of feeling disconnected and inadequate. It’s a common misconception that shame is helpful because people can become hyper-motivated to get away from it. But overall it just leads to workaholism and a terrible life with no self love. Instead, it’s much more sustainable and functional to motivate one’s self based primarily on positive motivation and from a self-loving place. Otherwise life just comes to be about running from the monster of shame.

@Jayson G There will always be an interest in improving skills with dating/meeting women/sex among men. That's not where the toxic element comes from. The toxic element comes from shame... which stems from the pressures that I mentioned. The issue is when men consciously believe that they just want to get better with women/dating... but in actuality are unconsciously looking for a salve to alleviate the shame. This is when the drive to connect with women get's pretzeled into the drive to alleviate shame. And men don't consciously realize that they're chasing two rabbits.

What do you mean by “admitted daddy issues”? What did I say? The majority of my parental issues have been with my mom.

Are you saying that men generally don’t feel pressure to match up to a Masculine ideal? Are you claiming that men as a collective actually feel more pressured to be Feminine than they are pressured to be Masculine?

Yes, this dynamic is a big part of what I mean.

Shame is about feeling fundamentally unworthy of existence. And the only antidote to shame is unconditional self-love. Any attempt to fix one’s self will always backfire and produce more shame because shame is about feeling invalid on the level of being. And running from shame is not a sustainable motivation strategy.

There are some solid points within this around the ideal Feminine image that tackle this topic from a different angle. Men’s shame in their Feminine side tends to come through the lens of Anima issues. There are 4 phases to Anima development… The Eve phase The Helen phase The Mary phase The Sophia phase In the Eve phase, men are the least integrated with their Anima (the Feminine side) and have a strong aversion to the Feminine and see women as both incapable and untrustworthy. In the Helen phase, men are somewhat more integrated with their Anima than in the Eve phase but still have an aversion to the Feminine and see women as capable but untrustworthy. In the Mary phase, it is named for the Virgin Mary. And the Feminine is idealized and viewed as pure goodness without any capacity for wickedness…. And women are seen as the purer sex. In the Sophia phase, this reflects a total dropping of shame regarding the Feminine side and a full integration of Anima. And the Feminine is recognized as multifaceted and women are seen as just human (without the projection of the Anima overlaying them) and are seen as free agents capable of both good and evil. What you describe here is what happens when a man in the Mary phase is faced with the reality of women being capable of ‘evil’. And they can either use this to transcend to the Sophia phase of slip back into the Helen phase.

It’s really obvious that most men feel lots of anxiety and pressure around approaching women. Just look around this forum and you’ll see clear evidence. Some of that is from the shame dynamic that I mentioned. Some of that is because rejection is difficult at any rate.

This is a dynamic that tends to create the shame. Many people expect men not to be human and vulnerable and to always be stoic and strong. And men often internalize this expectation from the time they are boys. And because the expectation isn’t realistic, it produces shame in having normal human emotions.

I see lots of people disagreeing pretty strongly with me on here. Perhaps it’s that many don’t like the idea of someone who is not a man speaking about men’s problems. I might also feel a bit triggered also if a man started talking about women’s issues. So, I get that. But I’m not generating this idea from nowhere. I know what shame looks like because I’ve been working 1-on-1 with people for over half a decade. And shame has been one of my core wounds as well. And it’s obvious once you know what it looks like. And men (in the broad strokes and in varying degrees) have a collective shame problem that presents itself in the form of Anima issues. And until the men who are the most afflicted with this pattern realize this, they’ll continue to get sucked into these groups and they’ll continue to have issues with things like connection.

The Shadow is called the Shadow specifically because it deals with what’s unconscious. You said yourself in a post a while back that you don’t trust women who are attracted to you. Kind of like how Mark Twain said, “I wouldn’t belong to any club that would have me.” I have to be honest that I see shame as one of the biggest driving factors of why you are focused towards life in the way that you do in general. Most people with a strong self-improvement focus are motivated significantly by shame as they cannot accept themselves as they are and feel they need to fix/improve themselves to become someone else.

You missed the essence entirely because it subtracted the compassion and understanding of root causes.

It's unwise to minimize men's pain like that.

It's observable

This 'men trying to match up to a Masculine ideal' dynamic is very obvious even at a cursory glance.

Thank you! I don't have specific examples of men in mind. But a good litmus test is how okay he is with just being himself without too much fixation upon being Masculine. And just allowing whatever happens to be there to be there. And men who feel secure in themselves even in being kind, warm, tender, etc.

Sexual needs are also intricately woven into this dynamic. But the fundamental toxicity of these groups doesn't foundationally come from unmet sexual needs... it comes foundationally from shame. And then that shame translates into more difficulties finding a sexual partner which aggravates and amplifies the whole shame dynamic. There's also a dynamic where people are socializing less, which leads to more of a capacity to project onto the opposite sex. So, that must also be accounted for as an external factor. But if you go into any Manosphere space... they aren't all gravitating there because they lack sex. (In fact, some men who hold this shame are having quite a lot of sex.) They are all gravitating there because they are all dealing with the same shame dynamic. Edit: Also an important thing to keep in mind is that if it were just about lacking sex, then pickup would fix the dynamic. But it doesn't fix it because being unsuccessful with women is a symptom and not a root cause. And most men still externalize their sense of validity onto women even if they get good with getting sex. This is why pick-up communities can be just as toxic as any other manosphere space as it is usually men who feel shame gravitating together.